Putin/Ukraine/and other actions

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by nckgmd

For a person who is trying to take a country by stealth this is completely the wrong move for Putin, to do something as silly as this. Basically because of what's happening in the Middle East the most of the worlds attention has turned away from Ukraine. Perfect time to steal more territory quietly. Unless that is Putin has total control of his armies like Hitler had in the second world war. Not listening to your generals and believing in yourself without question can lead you down a very dangerous path. My thinking is he could of ordered a civilian plane shot down and try to lay the blame squarely on Ukrainian's army. This is what you would call a false flag attack. Blaming an incident on another country giving you the right to launch an invasion. It has been done before the U.S. entering the Vietnam war was a false flag attack. It is known as The Gulf of Tonkin Incident. The U.S. fired first but later blamed the Vietnamese. So either this was a complete stuff up or Putin is so arrogant he thinks he can out smart the world. As a intelligence expert was saying on ABC news (Australia) this morning only well trained personnel can operate this rocketry system not these poorly trained separatist fighters. It's also convenient for Putin that some of the worlds top Aids researchers were on board and we know what Putin thinks of the gay community. You could say he got 2 birds with the one stone..

Although Mr Putin's virulent homophobia is a matter of record, I don't think we need to take seriously any idea that he would even consider the presence of AIDS research specialist aboard an airliner as any sort of incentive to shoot it down. I would be surprised if the people who fired this missile even knew the identity of the target, let alone who was aboard. It is not a thing which an intelligent person would do, to knowingly shoot down a civilian airliner from a neutral country using a weapon system which can be positively traced backwards.

Sadly though, this sort of stupidity is a characteristic of Russian official actions. The Litvinyenko murder is a perfect example; someone wanted to use Polonium 210 as the poison to send a message to other Russian dissidents in London, but totally underestimated how angry the British people would be; how easily traced backwards to source the crime itself would be, thanks to the radioactive trail of the Polonium 210 used; and how badly the British government would react. Some very stupid people were making important decisions on behalf of Russia, and the downing of this airliner indicates that nothing has changed. I doubt if Mr Putin directly took any part because he is a very clever man and this is probably not a mistake he would make.

The question not yet answered is who the actual perpetrators are. This was done using a powerful and modern SAM system, not some shoulder-fired one-man peashooter. MH17 was flying 10,000 metres up (33,000 feet) and should have been safe. Only a high grade weapons system such as governments have can shoot down aircraft at that altitude from the ground. If the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine did it, they must have been assisted by fully trained technicians and have had logistical and technical support from an official government in order to be able to operate a SAM system of the necessary calibre. That would mean that the Russian government was actually responsible and would be the return address. And rest assured that there will be return post in response to this one.

I would need some clear evidence that the seperatists even have access to the necessary weapons before putting them in the frame. It is much more likely that this came from an official military source. I am afraid that I like the Russian military for this one. They have been responsible for shooting down several Ukrainian military aircraft over Ukrainian airspace since these troubles started and this atrocity fits the pattern. It may even have been a target misidentification, but of course the Russian government claims to be taking no part in Ukraine and claims it is not shooting at targets anyway.

The official Ukrainian government needs to be looked at carefully as well; it would be in their interests to create an incident such as this, and history abounds with examples of false flag atrocities. I don't rule Kiev out, and if they do turn out to be the culprits, I would support military strikes, not half-arsed sanctions, in order to make very sure that they are extremely sorry.

[carpaths]

Originally Posted by nckgmd

Yes that's probably a better example.... One guy in my local paper has said we should boycott anything made in Russia. I can't think of anything that is sold in Australia that's made in Russia... Well except Vodka, which I don't drink. So I say ban the comb over.....

To boycott russian gds. (which are only oil and gas) is half the work. EU and USA should continue cooperative efforts on strangulation of Russia's economy till it completely die. I don't know what western leaders wait for... May be they want Russia to attack Ukraine directly? Well, Russia will if there will be only these ridiculous "sanctions".

[pharoahegypt]

I think Malaysia, and all those who lost passengers on the plane are taking this rather well.... Imagine what would now be occurring if that plane had been registered to North Korea instead..??!!

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

...if you want to ignore 95% of the rest of the world...

33.8 %. FTFY.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by nckgmd

My thinking is he could of ordered a civilian plane shot down and try to lay the blame squarely on Ukrainian's army. This is what you would call a false flag attack. Blaming an incident on another country giving you the right to launch an invasion.

I understand, Malaysia should conquer the Ukraine for Putin. Wow, this is really a diabolical plan.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

33.8 %. FTFY.

Please explain? China did not support Russia on the UN vote.

Even if it did it wouldn't exactly be a great democratic endorsement. Only those 11 appalling rogue regimes supported Russia out of 198 member states.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

33.8 %. FTFY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...olution_68/262

In favour: 100
Against: 11
Abstained: 58 - including China, which usually supports Russia.
Not present: 24

You have technically made a valid point, Nobody1. However the ROTW is 33.8% by world's population, but at a minimum it is 51.81% by nations. China has abstained, but was not supportive of Russia in any of her public statements on this issue; she is 19% of the world's population by herself. India is 17% and also abstained. Brazil abstained as well, as did Argentina. Russia has precious little positive support but she does have some big players in the world who are avoiding the issue and keeping their options open.

On the other hand, all of the other countries of Europe voted for this resolution, except Serbia and Bosnia, both of which were not present. Except for Serbia and perhaps Bosnia, Russia has no friends in Europe at all regarding the Crimea. The USA, Canada and Australia also came out against Russia on this one. If you think Russia isn't seriously isolated diplomatically, Nobody1, then you need to reconsider.

[vinceprince]

At least Putin was lucky it wasn't a Chinese plane the goons shot down.

[nckgmd]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

I understand, Malaysia should conquer the Ukraine for Putin. Wow, this is really a diabolical plan.

I don't think you quite understand what I meant. Putin has been telling the world that the Russian people living in Ukraine are under threat from I guess unstable government and Ukrainian thugs. So what I'm thinking could of happened is they shot a plane down and thought they could pin it on Ukraine to demonstrate how unstable their neighbour is. Ukraine has done it before accidentally during military training exercise (Siberia airlines flight 1812) Thus giving them reason to launch a full on invasion. The U.S. knows it was Russia that did it and according to a former Australian intelligence officer on T.V. today Russian trained personnel did it with Russian equipment. He said no allegation they did it. Also he said that a trained operator of such weapons would know if it was a commercial airliner. That Malaysian jet was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.. What ever happens now it's a complete mess.. Could the world be sliding into WW3

[Lemo]

I wasn't reading all the posts, as they deserve, will do it later. But saw here few mentions of facts widely published by press all the time.
1. Russia is supplying weapon to rebels.
2. Russia downed few Ukrainian planes.

The question is - what are the proofs of that?

Especialy with airplanes been shot - if Russias fighters would do this, than Ukraine would immidiately complain to US. When Ukraine shot down Russian airliner with passsengers American satelites helped to determ where missile were launched from. Also Ukraine would redirect all passenger air traffic from the area. Ukraine didn't done it.