The Second World War.

[deepsepia]

With respect to the Sherman and reliability -- remember, they were an ocean away from the factories that made them. German tanks could be remanufactured -- and they were, in the factories where they'd been built. No such option for the Sherman.

The Sherman was essentially made to be cannibalized for parts.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

With respect to the Sherman and reliability -- remember, they were an ocean away from the factories that made them. German tanks could be remanufactured -- and they were, in the factories where they'd been built. No such option for the Sherman.

The Sherman was essentially made to be cannibalized for parts.

Various decisions were made regarding the Sherman production-just as with any major automotive mass production, compromises are made to design to facilitate rapid production/ lower unit cost/ retooling/factory capacity etc etc

Cast hulls and turrets were faster to manufacture than welded/riveted ones (and experience on both sides had already shown what a liability riveted hulls and turrets were-regardless of how effective the vehicle in question might have been!)-casting steel means you can't harden it to anything like the strength of rolled steel; a well established US aero engine production industry meant the adoption of an aero engine as the powerplant-initially...with implications for fuel quality; and the pressure of war time development and production meant the use of an existing low velocity short barrelled gun already in use in the M2/M3 series. As I've stated earlier-the Sherman wasn't a great tank-but it was good enough-and available in quantity-and that was what counted in the end. It's also easily overlooked that when it came into service in 1942-the opposition was the Pzkw III armed with the 50mm long gun, and the Pzkw IV armed with the short 75mm-and the Sherman outclassed both of them-the Tiger and Panther both came as a nasty shock to the Allies-just as the T-34 did to the Germans...and the Allies didn't encounter the Tiger until the Tunisian campaign-by which time the Sherman had already entered service with the British. Just as with the German tanks the Sherman proved capable of incremental improvement and development-the Israelis even had a few with 105mm guns fitted. Tanks are ALWAYS a compromise between the mutually competing aspects of speed firepower and protection-you only get one at the expense of the other two...

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

75 Years ago today, Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, bringing the Soviet Union into WW2

Of course, 72 years ago, on 22 June 1944, the Red Army launched Operation Bagration. This was the biggest offensive action of WW2. It almost completed the task of expelling Axis forces from Russian territory and enabled the Russian forces (with some allies as well) to penetrate into East Prussia and Poland. It also brought about the ruin of Army Group Centre, the largest and most capable military formation the Axis side still had in the field. Operation Bagration was a decisive action in the war. It started within a few hours of the third anniversary of the first shot fired in Barbarossa. While I doubt if anyone in Russia took pains to achieve that symetry, I strongly suspect that many Russians involved in planning Bagration were aware of it and found it satisfying.

[scoundrel]

Between June 10th 1940 and May 8th 1943, over 900,000 Italian troops perticipated in hostilities across most of North Africa and in Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia. It isn't true that their tanks had one forward and five reverse gears. Wherever they were decently led and had even half-decent access to supplies and guns and ammunition, they proved themselves to be a serious threat to British Commonwealth forces. Despite the tin can flimsiness of Italian tanks, their Ariete tank division participated in several defeats of British Commonwealth forces in Libya and Egypt and was enough of a danger that the British side monitored it carefully and were never comfortable unless they knew precisely where Ariete was lagered right that minute. In East Africa the Battle of Keren ran from 5 February to 1 April 1941.

Keren is a city in the middle of Eritrea, the second largest place there after Asmara, the capital city. The main road between Kassala inside Sudan and the main port of Eritrea, Massawa on the Red Sea, passes via Agordat and then Keren. Keren is also the route to Asmara. What made Keren special was that it is located at the mouth of a pass through a range of mountains imaginatively called the Eritrean Highlands. These mountains are part of a bigger range called (wait for it) the Ethiopian Highlands; and the range extends south into Somalia and Tanzania. It is the same chain of mountains which includes Kilimanjaro. They may be rather blandly named but the Eritrean Highlands are seriously big fuck-off mountains ranging from 2000 to 3000 meters high; you cant drive motorised infantry divisions across them. Keren in located in a basin surrounded by these mountains north, west and south. The road and railway goes to there through a mountain pass west of the town, and if you want to go to the eastern half of Eritrea from Sudan this is the way in.

The Italians had invaded Sudan the previous year soon after war began between Britain and Italy. But they were unable to press the attack and by the end of 1940 British Commonwealth forces had been reinforced and were taking the initiative. The Italians were stronger in numbers but were cut off from Italy and lacked fuel. Also, whereas they had been disappointed by the lack of support they got from local Sudanese people in Sudan, they knew well enough how popular they themselves were in Eritrea and Ethiopia, what with having colonised an ancient independent kingdom using modern weapons and having used chemical weapons as well as an act of intimidation. So they adopted a conservative strategy, retreating in fairly good order eastwards down the road from Kassala and making Keren the place where they chose to fight. For them, Keren was the only really defensible position and they elected to do or die at that place.

The British Commonwealth troops were two British Indian Army divisions (4th and 5th Infantry) and a brigade of Free French, mostly men who walked away from Vichy garrison units in Djibouti and re-joined the war when De Gaulle offered an invitation. On the Italian side there was the 65th Mountain Infantry Division plus at least a large division of Ethipian Ascari native troops, who were actually rather good, easily the most competent and determined African troops on the Axis side. They were composed of the 2nd Eritrean Division and a small brigade scratched together from Ascari garrisons which had withdrawn from the north and west of Keren as the British Commonwealth troops advanced. As the Indian divisions closed in on Keren, the Italians reinforced the position with two regiments of Savoy grenadiers who were the core of their reserve and had previously been cooling their heels in Addis Ababa. The Duke of Aosta, who was the Italian Viceroy in Ethiopia, realised that if the British side broke through at Keren, reserves would be a waste of time and the fox would be in the hen house.

The British controlled the sea and used this advantage to support an advance south from Port Sudan down between the Red Sea and the Ethiopian Highlands with a view to taking the Italian/Ascari defence from the rear and turning their right flank as they faced west against 4th and 5th Indian Divisions. This attack was conducted by a brigade of the 5th Indian Division and by two battalions of Free French. It also threatened Massawa and forced the Italians to position troops west of Massawa instead of committing them to help the Keren defenders, who were fighting the decisive action of this campaign.

The first attempt to force the Keren position was not successful. The Italians had dynamited the sides of the Dongolaas Gorge and filled it boulders bigger than trucks, forcing the Indian Divisions to advance on foot. British soldiers of the Cameron Highlanders and Indians of the 14th Punjabi Regiment managed to take the gorge and Hill 161.1 behind it, which became known as the Cameron Ridge after the Punjabis and Camerons held it for over a month without being relieved and despite fierce Italian artillery pressure and counter-attacks. Food, water and ammunition was brought to them across hillside terrain raked by Italian machine guns; they were in a difficult position and held it bravely.

After the Camerons and Punjabis had stuck with it for two days, a freshly arrived brigade of the 4th Indian Division made the second prong of the attack, south of the blocked gorge, forcing the Italians to divert resources and taking away some of the pressure. This attack passed via a feature called the Scescilembi Valley, which became known as Happy Valley to the British side (we do like our little joke, you see). This advance took its first objectives but was too thinly resourced to hold the ground when the counter-attack came, mainly because the Italians had done the sensible thing and dynamited the Dongolaas Gorge, so that supplies couldn't be brought up by train or truck. The British did have mules and donkeys, but not enough to re-supply an infantry brigade in full action. After four days this attack had retreated back to its jump off position and the heat was back on for the defenders of Cameron Ridge.

The British commander, General Platt, decided to regroup. He pulled 5th Indian Division back to Kassala in Sudan and the railhead, so it could replenish. In rotation, it supplied brigades forward and brigades of the 4th Indian Division retired to Kassala and replenished. This occupied the second half of February 1941. By March 1st, Platt felt ready to try again. On March 1st, the side attack coming south down the Red Sea coastal plain had overcome an Italian defence of the Mescelit Pass only 15 miles north of Keren and the Italians were now closely pressed on three sides. 4th Indian Division attacked on the northern side of the Dongolass Gorge from the Cameron Ridge, still held by the Camerons and the 14th Punjabi Regiment. 5th Indian Division attacked again along the Happy Valley. which 4th Indian Division had seen plenty enough of before. But the Italians had managed to reinforce, in spite of the side attack from the north, with an extra brigade of Ascari troops; they had 25,000 men defending against 13,000 men of 4th and 5th Indian Divisions attacking. Worse, they had brought up the bulk of their entire artillery resouce and they won the artillery duel, forcing 5th Inidan Division to pull its artillery back out of range.

General Heath of the 5th Division (who later made a total pigs ear of the Burma campaign of 1942) decided that the key to Happy Valley was a hill called Dologorodoc which overlooked the valley and from where the Italian artillery fire was being directed. Once they had the top of the hill, the Indians would be overlooking the reverse slope and could direct artillery fire on the Italian supply lines and reserve areas. On 15th March the 4th Indian Division attacked again from Cameron Ridge and the 5th Indian Division attacked Fort Dologorodoc at the summit of the hill. The 4th Indian Division was spearheaded by the 2nd Battalion of the Highland Light Infantry; they were repulsed by Italian machine guns and lost many men, gaining nothing. But that night a night attack by 5th Indian Division rather brilliantly seized the Dologorodoc position. 2nd West Yorkshire Regiment managed to advance along a razor edge ridge thought by the Italians to be impassible to men in any numbers. Some of them fell off and died, and not one of the men who fell made a sound as he fell and died. This cold blooded courage was what made the surprise work. There was a bitter and cruel bayonet hand to hand fight, but 5th Indian Division took the hill and with it they took the critical position.

For several days the fighting was extremely hot as the Italians desperately tried and failed to retake Dologorodoc Hill and the 4th Indian Division tried and failed to advance from Cameron Ridge. Then Generals Platt and Heath decided that a different plan was needed, and this was to get the Dongolass Gorge re-opened. His engineers said they could do this in two days provided no one was killing them as they worked, so obviously the high ground had to be taken in its entirity so that the Italians could not fire on the gorge; exactly what the British had wanted to avoid, because it was going to cost a lot to get this done. But Heath had had enough of trying to outflank the gorge and being rebuffed, and Platt agreed with him. On the night of 24-25 March, the West Yorkshires and a battalion of the 5th Mahratta Regiment advanced north from Dologorodoc Hill and captured the high ground south of the gorge (the Mahrattas overcame stiff opposition). On the following night, troops of the 4th Indian Division seized the remaining high ground north of the gorge. The engineers has meanwhile cleared the railway tunnel which led into the gorge and were able to get to work on the blocked gorge as soon as the 4th Indian Division had mopped up. They had said it would need two days, but they did it in one.

The re-opening of the gorge made the Italian positions much too hot and of course the side attack behind the mountains from the north was hurting them as well. The forces around Dologorodoc Hill, under increasing British artillery pressure, gave it up and retreated in good order on 27 March. The Italians opposite Cameron Ridge were out of luck; the northern side attack encircled them, 4th Indian Division hit them again from in front and they ran out of ammunition. They asked for quarter and the 4th Indian Division accepted their surrender on 27 March. The town of Keren fell into Allied hands by 10.30am on 27 March. The Italians retreated towards Asmara. There was further stiff resistance from a garrison of 10,000 Italian troops at Massawa but the port was captured on April 8th after a fight which lasted four days. General Heath had told the Italian garrison commander that if he resisted the British side would leave Italian civilians to the tender mercies of the Eritrean civilian population, but the Italians called his bluff and it turned out he wasn't quite that pitiless. The fall of Massawa marked the end of organised Italian opposition in Eritrea and enabled the Allied side to focus on Ethiopia and Somalia.

[mjm1963]

Shocked to learn. I'm currently going out with a Polish woman. When she saw my book collection, the vast majority dedicated to World War Two. She picked one out about the 2nd SS Das Reich. "My great grand father served in this unit". Panzer Assault Badge, Iron Cross First and Second Class, and Infantry Assault Badge in Bronze.
Prior to meeting her I thought NO Poles served Germany.
On a Personal note, were getting married next year

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by mjm1963

Shocked to learn. I'm currently going out with a Polish woman. When she saw my book collection, the vast majority dedicated to World War Two. She picked one out about the 2nd SS Das Reich. "My great grand father served in this unit". Panzer Assault Badge, Iron Cross First and Second Class, and Infantry Assault Badge in Bronze.
Prior to meeting her I thought NO Poles served Germany.
On a Personal note, were getting married next year

According to the Third Reich, quite large bits of modern Poland were part of Germany and the people who lived there were treated as subjects of the Third Reich. Plenty of them would have ended up in German forces, either conscripted or as "volunteers". Not a few Poles ended up in the Red Army as well, regarded as Soviet citizens by means of Russian claims on the bit of soil where they happened to live.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. ~ The Who.

[haroldeye]

My father was conscripted into the German Army in 1940, he was born in the Polish Corridor in 1920, two years earlier he would have been German. He was captured by the British in 1944 and volunteered to fight with the Polish Army in Italy. The Germans didn't care who they conscripted.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

My father was conscripted into the German Army in 1940, he was born in the Polish Corridor in 1920, two years earlier he would have been German. He was captured by the British in 1944 and volunteered to fight with the Polish Army in Italy. The Germans didn't care who they conscripted.

Amazing story-- so he fought on both sides in the Second World War?

How many people could have said that?

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Amazing story-- so he fought on both sides in the Second World War?

How many people could have said that?

It was unusual in some countries and not so unusual in others. A lot of Italians had this experience when their country changed sides in 1943, as did some Finns who had the unenviable task of evicting the Germans from Finland after the September 1944 armistice with the USSR. But to have it happen to you as an individual was tricky; you could find yourself seriously unpopular with all sides if you didn't handle yourself very carefully. However quite a few Polish soldiers crossed the line, often on purpose and having the served the German side under duress, seeking their best moment in order to join the Allied side.

The risk you took was that if the Germans realised you had crossed over rather than gone missing or POW, they were extremely likely to victimise your relatives.

[rotobott]

One Korean chap, managed to fight for Japan, Russia and Germany, before being captured by the Americans and imprisoned in Britain, as you do

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Kyoungjong