Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

It's only because US administration has decided since 2001 to break down the price of oil all around the world.

This is not the entire picture. Venezuela is truly a cautionary tale of rampant state corruption, utter stupidity and economic mismanagement.

Instead of making the country's production more variable and independent, they continue to rely on the risky oil rentism ala Perez as the main source of state revenue. Instead of dethroning and disbanding own bourgeois forces, they try to appease them with opulent cash gifts. One notable example here was the nationalization of the Banco de Venezuela, where the state paid the incredible sum of $ 1.05 billion for the share majority, even though the entire bankroll was originally purchased by Grupo Santander for less than $ 300 million. Instead of making the country more independent of foreign influences by increasing self-sufficiency, especially in terms of agriculture and food production, they increased the dependence on all kinds of imports from the US, and thus made themself prone to Washington's sanction policy and the Wallstreet-driven currency war against the bolivar, which, taken together, had about the same impact on Venezuela's economy as carpet bombing. Rampant state corruption and the correlated capital flight are not fought by available measures under the rule of law, but tacitly accepted because the necessary tax reform is still not implemented, and there are still myriads of economic and military leaders in office that are not loyal to the country, but quite openly dream the American dream of a luxurious beach life in Florida while their country is steadily exposed to multiple endeavors by certain foreign three letter agencies to support and arm inner contra movements and to stir up one of their notorious color revolutions.

All together, a recipe for social disaster. A state that is no longer able to defend itself against internal and external enemies is on its way to becoming a failed state. If the Venezuelan civil society collapses under this enormous pressure, the US can brace itself for a new big wave of refugees that have nothing more to lose. And no wall will be high enough to stop them.

Peter Scholl-Latour called that 'The curse of the evil deed'.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

If the Venezuelan civil society collapses under this enormous pressure, the US can brace itself for a new big wave of refugees that have nothing more to lose. And no wall will be high enough to stop them.

Or, the country could simply get organized and sell oil. Again, this is a rich country living like a poor one because of disastrous mismanagement. Its a millionaire living in the gutter.

Refugees already have poured out of Venezuela, but for the most part haven't headed north. Neighboring Colombia is doing well -- that's what good management will get you-- so there are a lot of Venezuelan refugees there.

Colombia is conducting a census of these refugees to find out just how many:
https://www.devex.com/news/colombia-...-deepens-92544

Just today, neighboring Brasil, itself a mess -- but not so much of a mess as Venezuela-- has moved their armed forces to the border to try to control the flow of Venezuelan refugees.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/28/w...-migrants.html

So you're quite right, Venezuela's state failure has already produced a refugee crisis, and this will get much worse with this week's massive devaluation; but the US isn't likely to be the destination for many of these refugees.

The good news is: this could all be fixed, quite rapidly, by a competent government. Neighboring Colombia is larger in size, and after a very ugly guerilla war, is today prosperous and stable. And they can feed their people.

Colombia is a model of "just how much better things can be when you stop doing stupid shit"

[scoundrel]

I have noted BTW the assumption being made that US foreign policy is aimed strategically at keeping the oil price low. For example:

It's only because US administration has decided since 2001 to break down the price of oil all around the world.

The plan against Venezuela is the same as against Iran.

This is at odds with what the USA has actually done, certainly under the intellectually challenged presidents, Bush Junior and Trump. Mr Trump's policies so far have been aimed at constricting the world oil supply, and have driven prices upwards.

This of course is harmful to the domestic US economy and the best interests of ordinary Americans, but people like Trump do not care about the economy or the best interests of ordinary Americans, so that's alright.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

They said that the lack of food is a Western plot with the help of the Venezuelan rightists.
Logically Venezuelan people could get enough food, but there is a form of embargo.

That's not what Venezuelans say, its embarrassingly stupid.

Venezuela is more than capable of buying enough food to feed themselves.

Neighboring Colombia, with a very similar climate, is a major agricultural exporter -- luxury cash crops like coffee and flowers, and all kinds of tropical fruits -- bananas, palm oil, and plenty of beef. They used to sell a lot of their production to Venezuela.

Venezuela long ago diverted their workforce to oil production -- one man working on an oil well can produce money to buy far more food than he could ever produce working in the fields. So for a long time, Venezuela pumped oil, sold it on the world market, and used the cash to buy food, mostly from Colombia.

Now the Chavez Maduro crowd have destroyed the oil industry, and so there's no cash. They've tried a "back to the land" land reform, but the problem is that Venezuela doesn't have a huge number of agricultural workers. Taking an unemployed oilfield worker and saying "now grow corn" ain't necessarily a great idea.

So its just an example of bone head Marxists with Mao style daydreams of central planning.

Food is really cheap on the world market. Oil is really expensive. The problem is really a simple one: "Get some competent people in to run PDVSA so you can pump oil, cash checks and buy food"

But that's not what they're about. They're on a Mao/Kim style shtick of central planned autarky, one which produces hunger all over the world

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

beef

Can't count beef, we must respect that animals are not food

[Enrico32]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

Instead of making the country more independent of foreign influences by increasing self-sufficiency, especially in terms of agriculture and food production, they increased the dependence on all kinds of imports from the US, and thus made themself prone to Washington's sanction policy

'Tis the rule of colonialism. South America has been insufficient in food ever since Spanish colonialism because cash crops left no room for people's feeding. Even native manioc became cash crop because its flour and oil go to industrial production. Profit off cash crops went to the elites.

BUT
How the poor masses succeeded in growing 100-fold over the last century? 50 million Colombia, 30 million Venezuela, 20 million Ecuador - too many people to call these regions failing.
Maybe they make subsistence agriculture as squatters, illegally planting food amidst plantations?
People exist and grow like grass, the state is neglect of them because few people are needed to man plantations and petrol wells!

SO.........................................

People and the state treat each other equally neglectfully as mere FORMS OF NATURE!!

Oh no, it's rain! -Take umbrella.
Oh, it's Chavez! =Take umbrella.
Chavez: It's people outside, very many! =Take umbrella.

Originally Posted by Nobody1

there are still myriads of economic and military leaders in office that are not loyal to the country, but quite openly dream the American dream of a luxurious beach life in Florida

If so, why Venezuela even needs a separate government? Let all Caracas elites live off dividends while leaving their poor country to wise international technocrats?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Enrico32

'Tis the rule of colonialism. South America has been insufficient in food ever since Spanish colonialism because cash crops left no room for people's feeding. Even native manioc became cash crop because its flour and oil go to industrial production. Profit off cash crops went to the elites.

BUT
How the poor masses succeeded in growing 100-fold over the last century?
Maybe they make subsistence agriculture as squatters, illegally planting food amidst plantations?

A lot of misconceptions here. Have you ever heard of the notion of "comparative advantage"?

Its a basic idea in economics.

There are lots of Latin American countries with comparative advantages in agriculture-- Argentina, Brasil, Colombia, Chile (to some extent). They're all places with big agricultural exports. Some are cash crops like coffee, some are staples like wheat, fruit and potatoes.

Other places, like Venezuela have the world's largest oil reserves. In a normal economy, they pump oil, cash the check and buy food. There are lots of countries that do similar -- China buys a tremendous amount of food, so does Saudi Arabia, so does Japan. There's nothing abnormal about such a situation-- its how standards of living go up. Instead of a Japanese farmer trying to eke out a living on a tiny plot of land, he works in a Toyota factory.

This was all going well for Venezuela up to the arrival of Chavez and Maduro. They utterly destroyed the Venezuelan national oil company, PDVSA. When you've got a lot of oil -- and very easy to drill oil at that-- its hard to screw stuff up.

"Pump it, sell it, cash the check"

But Chavez and Maduro have so trashed PDVSA that production has fallen by half.

That's on them. Not "colonialism".

Venezuela is (or was) far richer than "subsistence farming" -- it was by most measures the richest country in South America. That was an agreeable thing to be . . . now utterly trashed by Marxists

See:
"How Venezuela went from the richest economy in South America to the brink of financial ruin"
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/l...-a7740616.html

[Enrico32]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Venezuela have the world's largest oil reserves. In a normal economy, they pump oil, cash the check and buy food. There are lots of countries that do similar -- China buys a tremendous amount of food, so does Saudi Arabia, so does Japan. There's nothing abnormal about such a situation-- its how standards of living go up. Instead of a Japanese farmer trying to eke out a living on a tiny plot of land, he works in a Toyota factory.

But when plantations and petrol fields are owned by the elite, only the elite decides how much ordinary food is purchased!!
I don't know how much food, in respect to total populace (incl. Indians and various unpersons), did purchase Simon Bolivar, Betancourt or Chavez. Perhaps only to feed the princely court in Caracas?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Enrico32

But when plantations and petrol fields are owned by the elite, only the elite decides how much ordinary food is purchased!!
I don't know how much food, in respect to total populace (incl. Indians and various unpersons), did purchase Simon Bolivar, Betancourt or Chavez. Perhaps only to feed the princely court in Caracas?

No, Venezuelans were well fed. Go back and look at UN Food and development reports from earlier decades. Remember, they were working in highly lucrative industries. PDVSA fed -- and paid -- their workers very well. Why? For the obvious reason-- they needed skilled workers working hard to produce crude. Labor isn't a big cost relatively to pumping oil from a giant oilfield. Everyone feeds oilfield workers well-- its hard work, and starving roughnecks can't do the very tough job.

Here's a look at just what Chavez and Maduro did to the nation's most valuable asset:

"Hungry Venezuelan Workers Are Collapsing. So Is the Oil Industry"
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...e-oil-industry

[Enrico32]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

No, Venezuelans were well fed. ..Everyone feeds oilfield workers well

Petrol is unstable industry, and much profits need to be reinvested in drilling and refining.
"Petroleos" has more obligations towards its business partners than towards Venezuela.

But very few Venezuelans work in petrol....
Many, many Venezuelans are Indians, Metiso, and "unpersons" all existing in a free fall.
Not mentioning those doing black market things.

It's been so since the Spanish, I guess.
Chavez had promised not much and not less than the Jesuits had.