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Old April 14th, 2012, 08:34 PM   #91
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I think what turns so many people away from organized religion is the enormous hypocrisy practiced by the leaders. I have never understood "A Bible in one hand and a sword in the other." How can "Love Thy Neighbour" and "Thou Shalt Not Kill" be so easily dismissed? The early Popes were some of the most depraved people in Europe, but they preached the party line. "No Sex Before Marriage", "Homosexuality is an Sin" we all know how well those two commandments are obeyed. "Be Fruitful and Multiply" for everyone except Priests and Nuns. It is claimed that Bin Laden had a hard drive full of porn, (wonder if he was a member here?). It just goes on and on.
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Old April 14th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by LusciousLarry View Post
I don't believe in Atheism, therefore Atheists do not exist.
Hmm. I don't believe that you don't believe so... does your post exist ?
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Old April 14th, 2012, 10:49 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Jacova_fan View Post
Humph. This thread's been an interesting read. I once again find myself in the minority; I'm a very strong believer in God. (Yeah, a Christian porn-lover; 'never claimed to be perfect...) I see evidence of God all around. I won't start listing what I see as evidence (that would be off-topic), but I do have to ask: could someone explain the Christan who doesn't "believe" dinosaurs existed? I'm a Christan, but I don't get that one...
I'm quite happy for others to believe in whatever they want, providing it doesn't interefere with me in any way.

But I see no signs a supreme omni-potent supernatural being at work. In some ways, the world remains a wonderful place (for the moment), but it won't last and God is unlikely to fix things.

I cannot imagine how anyone can possibly think that man is made in the image of God - an all-powerful force, able to control the entire Universe. Capable of exercising control across billions of light years distance and able to travel at will from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch, or whatever the end game might be. This kind of an entity would have a way of thinking that was totally unfathomable - far more-so than some advanced intelligent alien species only a few centuries removed from us. We would never be able to communicate with, or comprehend the thinking of this supreme being.

if it knew we were here, it would regard us as little more than a viral infection on a small pale blue dot at the edge of yet another bog standard galaxy, perhaps containing a million other intelligent lifeforms.

The reality (in MHO) is that we are simply here by accident, the Universe, or possibly Multiverse may be beyond our comprehension for all time and it's really not worth worrying about.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 08:46 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by palo5 View Post
Yes, but familiar rituals and community can give people comfort, Comrade. It doesn't always mean they believe in the supernatural
Much truth here comrade. There are many of the people that I know who have probable agnostic credentials that do go to their church, Anglican or RC becuase it is community. Not all the church going people that I know actually believe that Jesus was the son of god or that Mary was a Virgin mother but instead accept the moral rules that a prophet or visionary gave them.

Me, well as a scentist I can not say that there is definately no god, but what I can say is that evolution works without one and the Big Bang works without one and that Occams Razor suggests that the most simple hypothesis is usually the one which fits the observed evidence without any redundancy.

On balance there does not need to be a god in order to explain existance and therefore this is the likley secenario until proven otherwise.

Evolution vs. creative design....evolution is the simpler hypothesis that fits with what has been observed and is reproduced through simple testing along the lines of mendalian inheritances and more complex understanding of the process of genetic coding, meiosis, mitosis and spontabeous changes linked to inheretnt faults in the process or environmental impact.

Life after death, not enough evidence to support the concept sadly and therefore remains a myth until sufficient evidense is forthcoming.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 09:33 AM   #95
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Life after death, not enough evidence to support the concept sadly and therefore remains a myth until sufficient evidense is forthcoming.
I can never get anyone to explain that, I have religious friends who honestly believe they will meet their loved ones when they die.
My dad died when he was 39, I am older than that now so if that was true would be know me? Would a child that died at birth come back as a newborn? Would a 100 year old riddled with arthritis come back as a 100 year old and in what condition?

As for reincarnation..well there are now well over 6 billion people on this planet right now (maybe even 7 billion), at the start of the 20th century there were just over 1 billion.
Where did all these extra souls come from?
Do only certain people get reincarnated?

Beliefs in life after death evolved purely to combat the fear we all have of dying, nothing more and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 09:44 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Wendigo View Post
I can never get anyone to explain that, I have religious friends who honestly believe they will meet their loved ones when they die.
My dad died when he was 39, I am older than that now so if that was true would be know me? Would a child that died at birth come back as a newborn? Would a 100 year old riddled with arthritis come back as a 100 year old and in what condition?

As for reincarnation..well there are now well over 6 billion people on this planet right now (maybe even 7 billion), at the start of the 20th century there were just over 1 billion.
Where did all these extra souls come from?
Do only certain people get reincarnated?

Beliefs in life after death evolved purely to combat the fear we all have of dying, nothing more and there's nothing wrong with that.
Question so - do animals have souls ? While we're on the subject of afterlife and that ?

I don't really 'get' the fear of dying. Everything that lives, dies. 'On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero'.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 09:48 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Wendigo View Post
Beliefs in life after death evolved purely to combat the fear we all have of dying, nothing more and there's nothing wrong with that.
Indeed, whatever gets you through the day, week, year, my friend.

The human mind is very complex, able to be creative and to build things of beauty.

The human mind is also capable of sorting through masses of data and perceiving the order from the chaos.

However, with all this processing power does come a need for friendship, cameraderie, love, acceptance, understanding and comfort.

To this end some people will always find what they need in faith....nothing wrong with that, agreed.

I don't want it to be the end when I die, yet it probably will be, and yet I will edndure in the memories of those left behind.

It is often written of near death experiences and those people who claim to have almost passed over that they are met by loved former relatives who have already died. This happens in adults, the evidence in children who reacount the same thing is of being met by friendly cartoon charcters such as Mickey Mouse or Goofy and not great grandma Ethel.

Life is what you make it, and I guess that death maybe the same.

Go well everyone
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Old April 15th, 2012, 09:53 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by dbailey View Post
Indeed, whatever gets you through the day, week, year, my friend.

The human mind is very complex, able to be creative and to build things of beauty.

The human mind is also capable of sorting through masses of data and perceiving the order from the chaos.

However, with all this processing power does come a need for friendship, cameraderie, love, acceptance, understanding and comfort.

To this end some people will always find what they need in faith....nothing wrong with that, agreed.

I don't want it to be the end when I die, yet it probably will be, and yet I will edndure in the memories of those left behind.

It is often written of near death experiences and those people who claim to have almost passed over that they are met by loved former relatives who have already died. This happens in adults, the evidence in children who reacount the same thing is of being met by friendly cartoon charcters such as Mickey Mouse or Goofy and not great grandma Ethel.

Life is what you make it, and I guess that death maybe the same.

Go well everyone
I don't have a problem with what people believe, as you rightly say it's a personal thing and generally people use it to get them through the day. Faith is one thing, it's when you organise it, call it a religion and start to tell people what the can, can't and must do... then I start to have a problem with it.

Most organised religions seem to have forgotten the message, they're about power and control.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #99
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Most organised religions seem to have forgotten the message, they're about power and control.
That is the view that see I as well. Perhaps done through some benevolent reasons initially but sadly as with most things that self regulate, open to corruption by those so inclined?

I am putting some links in that may help people understand some of the arguments that are here in this thread. All are from Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Boeing_747_gambit

This is turning out to be quite an interesting philosophical thread.
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Old April 15th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #100
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To quote Douglas Adams from The Hitch-Hikers Guide To The Galaxy on the existence of the Babel Fish.
God - " I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith, and without faith I am Nothing"
Man - " But the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguement, you don't."
" Oh dear" says God, " I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

On a secondary note, I was having a pint with some friends a while ago & the subject of religion came up. I said that all religion was just an emotional crutch for people who can't deal with reality & the world would be a better & safer place without it. My mate, who I didn't know was a believer, went mad at me, we had a very 1 sided arguement i.e. he shouted & I laughed, & he hasn't spoken to me since. Now that's what I call turning the other cheek.
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