The Second World War. - Page 838

**Dr Pepper** · November 28th, 2018, 11:42 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8InfzkHYI

I say unlikely...because see below for the penetration figures for the 37mm M6 gun....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3 versus the KT rear armour thickness of 80mm....

**Rogerbh** · November 29th, 2018, 01:17 AM

Are you claiming The Haunted Tank wasn't historically correct?
https://www.biblio.com/book/showcase...BoCqx0QAvD_BwE
https://www.biblio.com/book/showcase...xoC81YQAvD_BwE
LOL

**Dr Pepper** · November 29th, 2018, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

Are you claiming The Haunted Tank wasn't historically correct?
https://www.biblio.com/book/showcase...BoCqx0QAvD_BwE
https://www.biblio.com/book/showcase...xoC81YQAvD_BwE
LOL

Let us say I may well have good grounds for skepticism.....

**scoundrel** · November 29th, 2018, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8InfzkHYI

I say unlikely...because see below for the penetration figures for the 37mm M6 gun....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3 versus the KT rear armour thickness of 80mm....

British forces had a similar problem with the two pounder (40mm) anti-tank gun, a singularly ineffective weapon against German tanks.

**haroldeye** · November 29th, 2018, 07:21 AM

You didn't have something like this to load your L1A1/SLR magazines?

https://www.buymilsurp.com/magazine-...le-p-3261.html
https://hatchfive.wordpress.com/2018...-speed-loader/

I have seen them and used one but I can't remember it being on general issue..

**Schwenck** · December 1st, 2018, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billybunter

Well, BB is going to say one thing. Pearl Harbor was a false flag. The US knew it was going to happen. They needed something to get the public to support joining the war. No offence meant. I have spoken to people who where there.

This is not true.
You can reasonably say the the US ought to have expected an attack on Pearl Harbour, but they clearly didn't: There were eight battleships tied up at Pearl Harbour when the Japanese attacked. The US was very lucky that their Aircraft Carriers were elsewhere.

**Rogerbh** · December 1st, 2018, 02:27 AM

What FDR knew before Pearl Harbor is disputed. John Toland wrote a book - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...9781101872840/ - that has been hotly contested.

I am guessing that I will be long dead before the final word is written about this subject.

**scoundrel** · December 18th, 2018, 11:30 PM

The MV Brisbane Star was barely six years old in August 1942. By the standards of that year she was a fast and modern ship. During her sea trials in 1936 she achieved 20 knots. She proved in 1942 that she could cruise at 17 knots over a lengthy period and when fully laden. She and her sister ship, MV Melbourne Star were refridgerated ships (aka "reefers") belonging to a freight company owned by the Blue Star line. Her designed purpose was to carry frozen meat (principally beef), frozen fish, fruit and dairy products from Australia and New Zealand to the UK and deliver it in prime condition after a voyage which might exceed 12,000 nautical miles. She continued this trade during WW2 but instead of sailing across the India Ocean and the South Atlantic via South Africa, she tended to go home to Britain across the Pacific and via the Panama Canal.

In 1942, she and her consort, MV Melbourne Star were commandeered by the Admiralty, though there was no change of crew or officers. Melbourne Star was loaded with fuel, heavy oil and ammunition...lots of ammunition for Malta's anti-aircraft batteries. MV Brisbane Star on the other hand was carrying food, as usual - but it wasn't just exactly as usual.

Malta had been on less than half rations for nearly a year. The last supply ships had been two vessels from Operation Harpoon in early June 1942 and they had not been carrying much food. Malnourishment was badly affecting the health of the people, and so were waterborne diseases, such as amoebic dysentery and (God help us) polio myelitis. Worst of all, the food was about to run out, even on starvation rations. The very last of the last reserves had just been distributed to the island soup kitchens and the next step after that was going to be to slaughter the horses and donkeys. Even that would have sustained the food supply only until 25 August 1942. "Desperate" is far too mild a word to describe the situation the island was facing. People were going to die of starvation in a matter of less than a month.

The food which would prevent this outcome was mainly loaded aboard the MV Brisbane Star. Though less prominent in the history books, her role in Operation Pedastal was just as important as that of the tanker SS Ohio. Without a resupply of food, Malta would have had no choice but to surrender, probably in mid September 1942. She was on the edge of being starved out, and MV Brisbane Star was as necessary to her people as the air they breathed.

During the first full day of the Battle of Operation Pedastal, MV Brisbane Star was struck by a torpedo launched from a German aircraft, near Cape Bon in Tunisia. She was left behind, her bows blown wide open, and everyone left on the convoy expected that she would sink. But her captain, Frederick Riley, and her crew hadn't read the script. Reduced to a maximum speed of 3 knots, she turned south and hugged the coast of Vichy controlled Tunisia, taking advantage of technically neutral waters, for what that was worth in 1942. She anchored in the Gulf of Hammermett, about 200 miles from Malta, in order to patch up as much as she could and then make a deadly independent bid to reach Valletta.

The harbour master of Sousse in Vichy Tunisia arrested the ship on the pretext that she was unseaworthy - Vichy was of course a deadly though not a declared war enemy of Britain. Captain Riley had not entered Sousse harbour, so the harbour master was outside his jurisdiction, and Captain Riley and his officers had pistols; so the harbour master retreated. However, Captain Riley realised that he has outworn his welcome and immediately sailed for Malta, now able to muster about six knots. Luckily the Malta military authorities were aware of him and most of his last leg of the voyage was accompanied by a fighter escort, which clashed several times with German and Italian bombers who were attempting to find and finish Brisbane Star off.

Brisbane Star limped into Valletta Harbour just after midnight on 14-15 August 1942. She was carrying over 7,000 tons of refridgerated food, absolutely vital for the physical survival of the Malta civilian population. It was enough to guarantee that they would eat (starvation rations of course) up to December. She arrived just after midnight on the feast day of Santa Marija, which celebrates the assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven. Every year, from that year to now, the churches in Malta commemorate 15 August with masses and prayers devoted to the souls of the men who died to bring to the people of Malta the food they had to have.

The morning after the night before.

It was only in December 1942 that MV Brisbane Star was sufficiently repaired to go to sea again, and by then the situation in the Mediterranean Sea had changed. She was sent to Argentina where the naval dockyard of the Argentine Navy repaired her properly. In her usual duties she often carried food from Argentina and the Argentines knew her well and did a good job. Meanwhile, Captain Riley was awarded the DSO for his gallant conduct in getting the ship to Malta against such fierce opposition and a number of his officers and men were also decorated.

The ship herself, alas, was scrapped in 1963. It is a pity - there are no survivors of the Pedastal merchantmen and really at least one of them should have been preserved. Ah well - her memory remains glorious.

**Reclaimedwg** · December 19th, 2018, 01:07 AM

I am not going to go back and search through 838 pages.

No one mentioned the Battle of Catania during the allied invasion of Sicily, the stepping stone/trampoline to the start of the campaign to liberate Italy from the Nazis?

Sicily is one of the most protracted and bloodiest battles fought by the Allies in the European theaters during World War II which led to a long campaign in Italy that didn't end with the Allied liberation of the Italian capital of Rome on June 4th, 1944, 2 days before D-Day in France.

The Italian campaign continued on until the Germans troops in Italy of Army Group C surrendered on May 2nd, 1945.

The allies committed over 1.3 million men to the Italian campaign: over 22,000 allied troops died in Sicily alone and over 310,000 allied troops died in Italy plus countless wounded.

The allies lost an astonishing 8000+ aircrafts and 3,370+ armored vehicles of all types.

Here's a battle in Italy during the so called Battle of Catania that many folks do not know about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fustian

Here's a place everyone should visit in Sicily:

Code:

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/overseas/second-world-war/italy/catania

Newspaper snippet about the Battle of Catania:

Code:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/56285921

**scoundrel** · December 21st, 2018, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

What FDR knew before Pearl Harbor is disputed. John Toland wrote a book - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...9781101872840/ - that has been hotly contested.

I am guessing that I will be long dead before the final word is written about this subject.

Admiral Kimmel tried to argue during and after the war that he had been hung out to dry. It is fair to say he was unlucky on the day - for example, the famous story of the warning telegram gone astray, a telegram which was only necessary because atmospheric conditions were poor and Washington couldn't reach Pearl Harbour on the radio. Unlike General MacArthur in the Philippines, Admiral Kimmel had no warnings - the Japanese just turned up and started shooting.

However, I think he was justly punished. His command was not at all on the alert. He did not mount standing patrols and he was aware that American naval surveillance had lost track of a large force of Japanese aircraft carriers. He had been ordered to prepare a defensive deployment of his fleet, but he appeared to think that keeping his capital ships on the dockside was a defensive deployment. He had not even ordered a state of alert. Such precautions as he did take were against sabotage from supposedly disloyal Japanese-American citizens, who turned out to be pathetically loyal to the USA in spite of the victimisation they suffered in WW2.

There isn't really a conspiracy theory which would explain why the fleet was tied up in harbour in spite of a well publicised state of diplomatic tension between the USA and Japan. Admiral Kimmel simply had not assessed the situation and the risks correctly. Even if he had had the same amount of warning which General MacArthur received, Admiral Kimmel's preparations were too little for such a warning to have made much difference. That's down to him.

November 28th, 2018, 11:42 PM	#8371
Dr Pepper Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: NZ Posts: 4,060 Thanks: 70,935 Thanked 41,106 Times in 4,051 Posts	An unlikely tale from the Ardennes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx8InfzkHYI I say unlikely...because see below for the penetration figures for the 37mm M6 gun.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/37_mm_Gun_M3 versus the KT rear armour thickness of 80mm....

December 18th, 2018, 11:30 PM	#8378
scoundrel Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England Posts: 26,268 Thanks: 162,490 Thanked 278,851 Times in 26,213 Posts	A homage to the MV Brisbane Star. The MV Brisbane Star was barely six years old in August 1942. By the standards of that year she was a fast and modern ship. During her sea trials in 1936 she achieved 20 knots. She proved in 1942 that she could cruise at 17 knots over a lengthy period and when fully laden. She and her sister ship, MV Melbourne Star were refridgerated ships (aka "reefers") belonging to a freight company owned by the Blue Star line. Her designed purpose was to carry frozen meat (principally beef), frozen fish, fruit and dairy products from Australia and New Zealand to the UK and deliver it in prime condition after a voyage which might exceed 12,000 nautical miles. She continued this trade during WW2 but instead of sailing across the India Ocean and the South Atlantic via South Africa, she tended to go home to Britain across the Pacific and via the Panama Canal. In 1942, she and her consort, MV Melbourne Star were commandeered by the Admiralty, though there was no change of crew or officers. Melbourne Star was loaded with fuel, heavy oil and ammunition...lots of ammunition for Malta's anti-aircraft batteries. MV Brisbane Star on the other hand was carrying food, as usual - but it wasn't just exactly as usual. Malta had been on less than half rations for nearly a year. The last supply ships had been two vessels from Operation Harpoon in early June 1942 and they had not been carrying much food. Malnourishment was badly affecting the health of the people, and so were waterborne diseases, such as amoebic dysentery and (God help us) polio myelitis. Worst of all, the food was about to run out, even on starvation rations. The very last of the last reserves had just been distributed to the island soup kitchens and the next step after that was going to be to slaughter the horses and donkeys. Even that would have sustained the food supply only until 25 August 1942. "Desperate" is far too mild a word to describe the situation the island was facing. People were going to die of starvation in a matter of less than a month. The food which would prevent this outcome was mainly loaded aboard the MV Brisbane Star. Though less prominent in the history books, her role in Operation Pedastal was just as important as that of the tanker SS Ohio. Without a resupply of food, Malta would have had no choice but to surrender, probably in mid September 1942. She was on the edge of being starved out, and MV Brisbane Star was as necessary to her people as the air they breathed. During the first full day of the Battle of Operation Pedastal, MV Brisbane Star was struck by a torpedo launched from a German aircraft, near Cape Bon in Tunisia. She was left behind, her bows blown wide open, and everyone left on the convoy expected that she would sink. But her captain, Frederick Riley, and her crew hadn't read the script. Reduced to a maximum speed of 3 knots, she turned south and hugged the coast of Vichy controlled Tunisia, taking advantage of technically neutral waters, for what that was worth in 1942. She anchored in the Gulf of Hammermett, about 200 miles from Malta, in order to patch up as much as she could and then make a deadly independent bid to reach Valletta. The harbour master of Sousse in Vichy Tunisia arrested the ship on the pretext that she was unseaworthy - Vichy was of course a deadly though not a declared war enemy of Britain. Captain Riley had not entered Sousse harbour, so the harbour master was outside his jurisdiction, and Captain Riley and his officers had pistols; so the harbour master retreated. However, Captain Riley realised that he has outworn his welcome and immediately sailed for Malta, now able to muster about six knots. Luckily the Malta military authorities were aware of him and most of his last leg of the voyage was accompanied by a fighter escort, which clashed several times with German and Italian bombers who were attempting to find and finish Brisbane Star off. Brisbane Star limped into Valletta Harbour just after midnight on 14-15 August 1942. She was carrying over 7,000 tons of refridgerated food, absolutely vital for the physical survival of the Malta civilian population. It was enough to guarantee that they would eat (starvation rations of course) up to December. She arrived just after midnight on the feast day of Santa Marija, which celebrates the assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven. Every year, from that year to now, the churches in Malta commemorate 15 August with masses and prayers devoted to the souls of the men who died to bring to the people of Malta the food they had to have. The morning after the night before. It was only in December 1942 that MV Brisbane Star was sufficiently repaired to go to sea again, and by then the situation in the Mediterranean Sea had changed. She was sent to Argentina where the naval dockyard of the Argentine Navy repaired her properly. In her usual duties she often carried food from Argentina and the Argentines knew her well and did a good job. Meanwhile, Captain Riley was awarded the DSO for his gallant conduct in getting the ship to Malta against such fierce opposition and a number of his officers and men were also decorated. The ship herself, alas, was scrapped in 1963. It is a pity - there are no survivors of the Pedastal merchantmen and really at least one of them should have been preserved. Ah well - her memory remains glorious. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

December 19th, 2018, 01:07 AM	#8379
Reclaimedwg Vintage Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,414 Thanks: 7,709 Thanked 26,949 Times in 3,089 Posts	I am not going to go back and search through 838 pages. No one mentioned the Battle of Catania during the allied invasion of Sicily, the stepping stone/trampoline to the start of the campaign to liberate Italy from the Nazis? Sicily is one of the most protracted and bloodiest battles fought by the Allies in the European theaters during World War II which led to a long campaign in Italy that didn't end with the Allied liberation of the Italian capital of Rome on June 4th, 1944, 2 days before D-Day in France. The Italian campaign continued on until the Germans troops in Italy of Army Group C surrendered on May 2nd, 1945. The allies committed over 1.3 million men to the Italian campaign: over 22,000 allied troops died in Sicily alone and over 310,000 allied troops died in Italy plus countless wounded. The allies lost an astonishing 8000+ aircrafts and 3,370+ armored vehicles of all types. Here's a battle in Italy during the so called Battle of Catania that many folks do not know about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fustian Here's a place everyone should visit in Sicily: Code: http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/overseas/second-world-war/italy/catania Newspaper snippet about the Battle of Catania: Code: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/56285921 Last edited by Reclaimedwg; December 19th, 2018 at 01:14 AM..

November 29th, 2018, 01:17 AM	#8372
Rogerbh Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Land of the free within reasonable limitations Posts: 10,942 Thanks: 50,638 Thanked 91,429 Times in 10,791 Posts	Are you claiming The Haunted Tank wasn't historically correct? https://www.biblio.com/book/showcase...BoCqx0QAvD_BwE https://www.biblio.com/book/showcase...xoC81YQAvD_BwE LOL

November 29th, 2018, 07:21 AM	#8375
haroldeye Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halfwitistan Posts: 5,718 Thanks: 113,623 Thanked 59,994 Times in 5,710 Posts	You didn't have something like this to load your L1A1/SLR magazines? https://www.buymilsurp.com/magazine-...le-p-3261.html https://hatchfive.wordpress.com/2018...-speed-loader/ I have seen them and used one but I can't remember it being on general issue..

December 1st, 2018, 02:27 AM	#8377
Rogerbh Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Land of the free within reasonable limitations Posts: 10,942 Thanks: 50,638 Thanked 91,429 Times in 10,791 Posts	What FDR knew before Pearl Harbor is disputed. John Toland wrote a book - https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/b...9781101872840/ - that has been hotly contested. I am guessing that I will be long dead before the final word is written about this subject.