The Second World War.

[rustler]

Originally Posted by knobby109

I understand that it was the introduction of very high frequency radar which enabled the Allies to detect U boats; the Germans had no idea that we had it and couldn't detect it.

They did develop a surface radar, which enabled them to know when an Allied radar had located them. Many an aircraft, thinking itself to be unobserved in the dark, approached a U-boat only to be met with a hail of gunfire!
The same radar that allowed the Leigh Light to be so effective in the early days was, later on, traceable by the Germans.
A U-boat on the surface was a formidable enemy, and at one point Dönitz forbade submarines from diving upon sighting an enemy aircraft, they were to fight it out on the surface. Many aircraft, and submarines, were lost due to surface action.
IIRC.The only U-boat ever captured and salvaged by the RN., U 570, later HMS. Graph, was originally captured by a RAF Hudson bomber!

EDIT, it wasn't so much a surface radar that they developed, it was a system capable of detecting the beams from Allied airborne radar!
Much the same happened with Bomber Command, which allowed an enemy night fighter, or ground control fire to locate an Allied bomber in the dark. They 'locked on' to the Allied airborne radar and direction finding beacons.

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by rustler

EDIT, it wasn't so much a surface radar that they developed, it was a system capable of detecting the beams from Allied airborne radar!

That was Metox.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metox

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by rustler

Much the same happened with Bomber Command, which allowed an enemy night fighter, or ground control fire to locate an Allied bomber in the dark. They 'locked on' to the Allied airborne radar and direction finding beacons.

... and that was Monica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica_tail_warning_radar

[Historian]

Originally Posted by rustler

The same radar that allowed the Leigh Light to be so effective in the early days was, later on, traceable by the Germans.
A U-boat on the surface was a formidable enemy, and at one point Dönitz forbade submarines from diving upon sighting an enemy aircraft, they were to fight it out on the surface. Many aircraft, and submarines, were lost due to surface action.

As you say, if it wasn't caught totally by surprise, and it's deck gunners were on the ball, a U-boat caught on the surface was a tough opponent to attack- of the 4 VCs awarded to RAF Coastal Command pilots during WW2, three were for attacks against U-boats, and two of the three were posthumous.

You've already mentioned Liberator pilot Lloyd Trigg a couple of pages back, but the other two VCs for attacking U-boats are those awarded to Catalina pilots David Hornell and John Cruickshank.

On 24th June 1944, F/Lt David Hornell, a 34-year old Canadian serving with 162 Squadron, RCAF at Wick in Scotland, was flying a Catalina (actually a Canso, the Canadian licence-built version) on patrol over the North Atlantic, when he sighted a U-boat on the surface about 120 miles off the Shetlands.
U-1225, commanded by Oblt. Ekkehard Scherraus, was a few days into it's first tour of active duty, having previously served with a training flotilla until being transferred to 2nd U-Boat flotilla at Lorient in at the beginning of June 1944.

Hornell swooped in to attack, but was spotted immediately by U-1225's gunners who opened fire, scoring multiple hits on the Canso. Despite significant damage to his aircraft, including a major fire in the starboard engine and wing, Hornell pressed home his attack, dropping 4 depth charges on U-1225 with devastating effect, the U-Boat being sunk with all hands.
Hornell fought to gain height, as the vibration from the blazing starboard engine and wing increased, until the burning engine suddenly broke loose from the damaged wing. Hornell turned the crippled Canso into the wind and managed to put it down safely on the sea.
The ordeal for Hornell and his crew was about to get worse- only one of the aircraft's liferafts was undamaged, and this wasn't big enough to accommodate the entire crew- Some of them would have to take their chances in the sea...
They would spend 21 hours in the water- each man taking turns between being in the liferaft and hanging onto it's side in the bitterly cold ocean.
After around five hours, they were sighted by a Catalina of 333 (Norwegian) Squadron, but a combination of poor weather, heavy seas and equipment failures frustrated attempts to rescue them. An airborne lifeboat was successfully dropped, but it landed 500 yards downwind. Hornell, although nearing exhaustion, had to be physically restrained by his crewmates to stop him attempting to swim out and retrieve it...
Eventually, an RAF rescue launch reached them, and plucked them from the sea. Two of them were already dead from exposure, and Hornell himself only survived a short time after rescue.
His posthumous VC was gazetted on 28th July 1944, the first to a member of the RCAF.

[Ennath]

November 18, 1935
Diplomatic Relations Britain and France lead the League of Nations to impose sanctions against Italy, but these are halfhearted. Oil supplies are left unhindered and nothing is done to close the Suez Canal to Italian troopships. Mussolini is nonetheless driven to look toward Germany for support. In turn Germany receives a free demonstration of the ineffectiveness of the League and some indication of what can be achieved by determination and brute force.

November 18, 1936
Diplomatic Relations Germany and Italy recognize Franco’s Nationalists as the government of Spain.

November 18-19, 1940
Battle of the Atlantic A U-Boat approaching a convoy is detected by a Sunderland flying boat fitted with an Air to Surface Vessel (ASV1) radar set. This is the first time such a detection has been achieved by airborne radar under operational conditions.
Diplomatic Relations The Spanish Foreign Minister is in Berlin. Hitler tells him of the need for German intervention in the Balkans and again tries to induce Spain to join in an attack on Gibraltar. Hitler is told that Spain needs 400,000 tons of grain and two months preparations before it can act. In fact, Franco has decided to keep his battered country out of the conflict.

November 18, 1941
North Africa A new British offensive, Operation Crusader, begins with an advance by XXX Corps over the Egyptian border into Libya. The British forces are now organized as 8th Army, under General Cunningham. They have about 450 cruiser tanks and 132 infantry tanks in their main forces with more in the Tobruk garrison. They also have good reserve stocks of all equipment. The cruiser tanks are concentrated in XXX Corps which leads the attack. There are problems with the reliability and gun power of the British tanks and, far more importantly, defects in the tactical training of the armored units. Cunningham has no experience in commanding tank units.
The Germans have about 180 Mk III and IV tanks with another 220 of the weaker German light and Italian types. On or near the frontier there are garrisons in fortified areas on the coastal routes to west and east, with 21st Panzer Division supporting them. The bulk of the Italian force is farther back around Tobruk and to the south. German 15th Panzer and Afrika Divisions are also near Tobruk. Rommel was intending to attack Tobruk on the 21st and has, therefore, enough supplies for a short, sharp battle, but not for the prolonged brawl which will ensue. The British deception measures have been good and because of this and his determination to attack Tobruk, Rommel will not react promptly to the British attack. He is in fact returning to North Africa from Rome when the attack begins.
The rather vague British plan is to advance round the inland flank to the area of Gabr Saleh, draw the Germans into making attacks and destroy their tank forces. On the first day, 7th Armored Division and other XXX Corps units advance to Gabr Saleh virtually unmolested.
East Africa British forces are closing in on Gondar, the last Italian stronghold.
Eastern Front One of Guderian’s infantry divisions loses heavily in fighting near Venev in a counterattack by one of the fresh Siberian divisions. There is a series of similar brief Soviet attacks against Guderian’s force over the next few days which do much to confine the German attempts to advance.
Japan, Politics The Diet passes a resolution of hostility to the United States.
Pacific Eleven Japanese submarines leave their home ports to take up stations off Hawaii or to take part in other scouting missions. A further nine boats head toward Hawaii from Kwajalein.
British Command General Brooke is chosen to replace General Dill as Chief of the Imperial General Staff. Dill will go to Washington to head the British military mission there and General Paget becomes Commander in Chief, Home Forces in place of Brooke. These appointments take effect in December.

November 18, 1942
Guadalcanal The US forces begin moving west once more. The attacks are not particularly forceful but do continue for five days before the next lull. The Americans are not again compelled to close up to the original perimeter. There are now about 23,000 US troops on the island. Japanese effectives number about 20,000, though many of these are seriously ill with beri-beri or dysentery.
Tunisia The British at Djebel Abiod drive off a German attack. The paratroops are now at Sidi Nsir. French troops are attacked by German forces at Medjez el Bab.
France With German troops now in control, Petain grants power to Laval allowing him to issue decrees solely on his own authority. Petain is gradually becoming less and less important to the Vichy government, although his enormous prestige remains.

November 18, 1943
Eastern Front The Soviets take Korosten and Ovruch, a little farther north. West of Gomel they take Rechitsa and cut the railroad. The Germans are still applying pressure south of Zhitomir.
Europe, Air Operations Bomber Command begins the “Battle of Berlin”, the third of Harris’ well publicized campaigns. The campaign will include 16 major attacks on the German capital as well as others against different targets. By the time the “battle” ends on March 24, the RAF has flown 9100 sorties against the city and lost 600 aircraft.

November 18, 1944
Western Front US 3rd Army approaches the German border. Bouzonville on the Nied is taken. US troops enter Metz. Around Aachen British XXX Corps joins the attacks, attacking around Geilenkirchen. Jülich falls. US VII Corps enters the Hurtgen Forest and penetrates the outer defenses of Düren.
Eastern Front Soviet attacks on Saaremaa Island are resumed. The island is tenaciously defended.
The Philippines There is bitter fighting on Leyte in the areas of the hills called Kilay and Corkscrew, where the resistance of Japanese 30th Division is intense.
Carolines A Japanese raid with Kaiten suicide midget subs on Ulithi atoll sinks an oiler.

November 18, 1945
Iran A revolt by the Communist Tudeh party breaks out in Azerbaijan. Efforts by the government to suppress it are hampered by Soviet troops still in Iran. The Iranians protest to the UN.

[rustler]

If I recall correctly, the very gallant Fl.Lt. Hornell also went completely blind before death finally overtook him. A very brave man indeed.

F.O. John A. Cruickshank's VC is a very famous one. Again, IIRC. he recieved nearly 70 wounds during the action, which resulted in the sinking of the U-361, and refusing morphine, had a six hour flight home again! He is the only WWII VC still living?

[palo5]

Originally Posted by rustler

...IIRC. he recieved nearly 70 wounds during the action, which resulted in the sinking of the U-361, and refusing morphine, had a six hour flight home again!...

70 wounds and he refused morphine?

Do you know why? - it's true that morphine makes you high, but you aren't in cuckoo-land, and great pain is hardly a better condition. Was his co-pilot dead?

[rustler]

The Catalina flying boat that Cruickshank was flyind had a second and third pilot as well. The third pilot was killed, and the second pilot was wounded. Cruickshank stayed in the cockpit, though Flt Sgt. Garnett, the second pilot took over and set course for home.
Though he was semi-conscious for some of the time, he eventually resumed command and landed the aircraft in difficult waters, then passed out!
It was a remarkable feat of endurance!

[Historian]

The Cruickshank story in full- He was an RAF Volunteer Reserve pilot, with 210 Sqaudron, at Sullom Voe in the Shetlands. He'd initally served in the Royal Artillery before transferring to the RAF in 1941 for pilot training.

On 17th July 1944, patrolling over the North Atlantic, his Catalina caught U-361 on the surface (although at the time, it was mis-identified and his VC citation incorrectly records the attack as being on U-347)
Kapitanleutnant Hans Seidel's deck gunners were alert, and Cruickshank's Catalina flew into a hail of flak as he made his bombing run. This first attack was unsuccessful however, as the depth charges failed to release.

With U-361's gunners now well and truly finding their target, Cruickshank could possibly have been forgiven for breaking off the attack and looking for easier prey, but instead, he turned the Catalina around for another go. This time, the attack was spot-on, Cruickshank's depth charges straddling U-361 and sinking it, with the loss of all 52 crew.

Cruickshank's success had been at a price though- the intense fire from U-361's deck guns had been deadly accurate, and his aicraft hadn been severely shot up- two of his crew were dead, and four wounded, including both Cruickshank and his co-pilot, Flight Sgt Jack Garnett.

As already described, Cruickshank's injuries were particularly severe- 72 shrapnel wounds, including 10 in his legs, and two serious wounds puncturing his lungs.
He collapsed, and Garnett took over the controls. When Cruickshank came to, he refused assistance until he was sure Garnett had the damaged aircraft under control, on course for home and a message had been sent to base. Even then, he refused morphine, in case it might affect his judgement.


The flight home would be five-and-a-half hours, with the wounded Garnett at the controls and Cruickshank lapsing in and out of consciousness from loss of blood. As they approached home, Cruickshank realised that landing the damaged Catalina in the dark and in heavy seas would be a difficult task for his wounded and less-experienced second pilot, and despite the pain, loss of blood and difficulty breathing from his wounds, insisted on being carried forward to the cockpit, and resuming command from the co-pilot's seat.

Deciding that the conditions were too risky for Garnett to attempt an immediate landing, Cruickshank kept the Catalina circling Sullom Voe for a further hour, before assisting Garnett in landing the aircraft, and then directing the task of taxying the aircraft to shore where it could be safely beached. When a medical officer reached the aircraft, Cruickshank had to be given an immediate blood transfusion before he could be taken ashore.

John Cruickshank's VC was awarded on 1st September 1944, with an Distinguished Flying Medal being awarded to his co-pilot Jack Garnett. Cruickshank would never fly in command of an aircraft again, but post-war would return to his career in banking.

As Rustler suggested, now aged 92, John Cruickshank is the last surviving World War 2 VC.

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by Historian

As you say, if it wasn't caught totally by surprise, and it's deck gunners were on the ball, a U-boat caught on the surface was a tough opponent to attack- of the 4 VCs awarded to RAF Coastal Command pilots during WW2, three were for attacks against U-boats, and two of the three were posthumous.

You've already mentioned Liberator pilot Lloyd Trigg a couple of pages back, but the other two VCs for attacking U-boats are those awarded to Catalina pilots David Hornell and John Cruickshank.

On 24th June 1944, F/Lt David Hornell, a 34-year old Canadian serving with 162 Squadron, RCAF at Wick in Scotland, was flying a Catalina (actually a Canso, the Canadian licence-built version) on patrol over the North Atlantic, when he sighted a U-boat on the surface about 120 miles off the Shetlands.
U-1225, commanded by Oblt. Ekkehard Scherraus, was a few days into it's first tour of active duty, having previously served with a training flotilla until being transferred to 2nd U-Boat flotilla at Lorient in at the beginning of June 1944.

Hornell swooped in to attack, but was spotted immediately by U-1225's gunners who opened fire, scoring multiple hits on the Canso. Despite significant damage to his aircraft, including a major fire in the starboard engine and wing, Hornell pressed home his attack, dropping 4 depth charges on U-1225 with devastating effect, the U-Boat being sunk with all hands.
Hornell fought to gain height, as the vibration from the blazing starboard engine and wing increased, until the burning engine suddenly broke loose from the damaged wing. Hornell turned the crippled Canso into the wind and managed to put it down safely on the sea.
The ordeal for Hornell and his crew was about to get worse- only one of the aircraft's liferafts was undamaged, and this wasn't big enough to accommodate the entire crew- Some of them would have to take their chances in the sea...
They would spend 21 hours in the water- each man taking turns between being in the liferaft and hanging onto it's side in the bitterly cold ocean.
After around five hours, they were sighted by a Catalina of 333 (Norwegian) Squadron, but a combination of poor weather, heavy seas and equipment failures frustrated attempts to rescue them. An airborne lifeboat was successfully dropped, but it landed 500 yards downwind. Hornell, although nearing exhaustion, had to by physically restrained by his crewmates to stop him attempting to swim out and retrieve it...
Eventually, an RAF rescue launch reached them, and plucked them from the sea. Two of them were already dead from exposure, and Hornell himself only survived a short time after rescue.
His posthumous VC was gazetted on 28th July 1944, the first to a member of the RCAF.

What a tragic waste of the lives of some really good guys.On both sides; we can at last say this as it was long enough ago to view things with more detachment..