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May 13th, 2018, 10:21 PM | #3621 | |
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May has no mandate for a hard Brexit. First, there was no mention of the Single Market or the Customs Union on the referendum ballot. And second, May lost her majority in the last General Election. If the British people wanted a hard Brexit, they would have given May a big majority, not a hung parliament.
The only democratic way to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union is either through another referendum or through a vote in the House of Commons. May is too scared to put her Brexit plan to a vote in the House of Commons because she knows the outcome won't be favourable. Quote:
Whether it's the customs partnership or the MaxFac fantasy, it won't work because 1. The Single Market and the Customs Union belong to the EU, therefore the Europeans set the rules, the British don't. 2. MaxFac won't prevent the smuggling of dangerous items (weapons, chemicals, mad cow disease, etc...). Therefore there must be checks, but the obvious consequence is that it will kill the Good Friday Agreement. |
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May 13th, 2018, 10:40 PM | #3622 |
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I disagree jacques22: How can we leave the EU without leaving the customs union and the single market and ending free movement of EU citizens?
There is no option but a hard brexit, if we are to actually leave the EU. Staying in the customs union and the single market and allowing free movement of EU citizens will mean we have not left the EU. I'm fairly sure that most people who voted for brexit would've thought about that. While I didn't think about the border in Ireland when I voted, I have come to the conclusion that perhaps looking at the idea for there being special routes or lanes etc. for goods vehicles so that they can be checked, while leaving domestic vehicles free from checks could be a reasonable compromise. Although I suspect those who have any power who don't want Brexit would scupper the idea.
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May 13th, 2018, 11:23 PM | #3623 | |||
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May 14th, 2018, 06:52 AM | #3624 |
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Of course there is already a real border in Ireland, reflecting different excise duties, VAT rates an d veterinary regimes. Across this border duties are levied, taxes collected and animals transported after veterinary clearance. There are, I understand, even cameras (infrastructure!).
Numerous current regulatory divergences between NI and the Republic (in the currency, employment law and labour relations, excise duties, VAT, corporation tax, some phyto-sanitary rules, armed forces, and so forth) do not appear to have threatened North-South co-operation over the past two decades. Of all trade outside, and between the EU and the outside only 2% is physically checked which means that 98% is via online, MaxFac. We will be outside. So, we can do the same. The system could be controlled by ensuring matching of declarations for import and export; routine checks behind the border either at designated trade facilitation posts (as envisaged by the Irish Revenue Commissioners) or at importer and exporter premises; spot checks by mobile compliance units; and trading standards, food standards and other relevant agency enforcement. |
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May 14th, 2018, 07:55 PM | #3625 |
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Jacques22, Where does
"...Further European integration..." end? Why don't they set a clear limit on where it ends, what it's final goal is? Before our Government joined the "European Economic Community" (without our say-so), I think 100% of our laws were made in Britain by our often annoying, idiotic, politicians. Now, after we've been a member of the "European Union" for some years and have seen some of this "European integration", 87% of our laws are made in Britain by our often annoying, idiotic, politicians. 13% of our laws are made by mostly foreign often annoying, idiotic, politicians. Is that the case with all other EU member states? I presume so. How many more years will it be until "further European integration" results in 10% or 20% of a member-state's laws being made in that member-state by that member-state's often annoying, idiotic, politicians and 80% or 90% if it's laws being made by mostly foreign annoying, idiotic, politicians? I understand that you think: "...In fact, the only goals mentioned in the Lisbon treaty are quite pedestrian: economic growth, job creation, structural reforms, social cohesion, price stability." are the prerequisites to "...further European integration..." but don't you think that they are among the prerequisites to creating a single European state? Edit: After many attempts I've finally managed to post this some days after originally trying to.
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May 14th, 2018, 09:14 PM | #3626 | ||
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe..._Customs_Union This is not a million miles different from Britain seeking to negotiate a trade arrangement with the EU, and serves at least as a working example of a trade agreement between the EU and a neighbouring non-EEA and non customs union state. Moves are afoot to grant the right to visa-free travel to the Schengen area to Turkish citizens, though the recent political developments and trends inside Turkey are making even EU commissioners wonder whether Turkey is sufficiently democratic. Part of being in either the EEA or the Customs Union is to accept the free movement of labour. When I for one voted to Leave, I did not do so in order to preserve the free movement of labour. Logically, if I had wanted that, I would have voted to Remain; failure to control immigration either within the EU or from outside the EU was a key reason why I felt obliged to vote Leave. Apart from the undermining of the British labour market caused by the "freedom of movement of labour", there are serious risks for British national security if millions of unvetted "refugees" from Africa and the Middle East can come and go as they please. These are legitimate concerns and the EU has militantly refused to acknowledge them or offer any solutions. To advocate any arrangement which will not repatriate Britain's control of immigration policy is inconsistent with any genuine acceptance of the Leave vote and ignores, yet again, the legitimate concerns which British people have expressed about this issue. Quote:
Also of course, it is perfectly possible to belong to the single market as a non-EU member. The problem of smuggling and health hazards is not new and not created by Brexit. Neither is it one way, as I found when I watched a chap in the port of Dublin as he sprayed disinfectant spray containing heaven knows what chemicals onto my boots and the tyres of my motorcycle as part of Ireland's precautions to prevent foot and mouth disease. The Brexit issue will mainly affect tariffs and trade and it should be possible to deal with that one. We have had a common travel area with Ireland since 1922. For those who are not Irish or British, the same rules should apply as apply on mainland Britain, unless the Good Friday Agreement prohibits all forms of immigration control?
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May 15th, 2018, 01:12 AM | #3627 | |||
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- Irish farmers who need to cross the border every day and don't want to be slowed down in their work. Before the 1998 peace deal: " I hated going through the border because you got enormous hassle, you could be there for 10 minutes or you could be there for two hours. If they didn’t like you, it’d be two hours." After 1998: "At the minute there is no real problem, you can cross the border as free as you want. We could cross it six or eight times a day" (https://www.independent.ie/business/...-36743587.html) - The economic integration of the north and south has helped some businesses flourish across the Irish border. Those same businesses could go bankrupt with border checks: "According to the Ulster Farmers’ Union, 40 percent of all Northern Irish lambs are processed in the republic. A quarter of milk output also moves south, the Dairy UK trade body says, and around 60 percent of Northern Ireland’s processing capacity is owned by dairy co-operatives from the republic. If common standards cease in areas such as labelling and product traceability, business north and south will grind to a halt” (https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKBN1DV56B) Quote:
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May 15th, 2018, 01:19 AM | #3628 | ||
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Fast forward, that idealism is now gone because the Soviet bloc has collapsed and because European integration has led to a backlash with a resurgence of regionalism (you can see it with Catalonia in Spain or the Northern League in Italy). Today, Macron is the only European leader still believing in further integration. Even his most ambitious proposals (a Eurozone budget and minister, a common European defense budget, a European tax on financial transactions) are quite lame compared to the ideal of a United States of Europe. Most European leaders won't follow Macron's ideas because they want to keep what's left of their nations' sovereignty and because wealthy nations don't want to pay for the poor ones. So the idea of a single European state is just a dream. Quote:
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May 15th, 2018, 01:28 AM | #3629 | ||||
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May 15th, 2018, 04:39 AM | #3630 | |
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