The First World War

[Trintron]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

It was not only the Kaiser; all the participants in 1914 planned for a short war. The ones who might have warned everyone else about what was likely to happen were the Americans, who had undergone trench warfare in the 1860s. Russia basically ran out of artillery shells early in 1915 and was forced into a defensive strategy for most of that year until she was able to rectify this supply situation. There was a monstrous typhus epidemic across the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1915 caused partly by inadequate food supplies weakening the resistance of the population. The murderer of Arxhduke Ferdinand died of typhus in a prison during that epidemic. The epidemic tore terrible swathes through the people of Serbia, and was partly to blame for the fall of Serbia months later. All of this reflected the unreadiness of these ancient nations for the new conditions of modern war.

True, everyone was fixated on a short war, all of the powers involved in WW1 thought they would just march their armies around Europe, fight a few battles and sign a armistice settling things quickly to end hostilities and everything would go like clock work. Many European nations looked to the Franco-Prussian war as a case study on what would happen, instead they should have studied the US Civil War.

On another subject, Austria-Hungry was the least prepared for WW1 and most old fashion of all the armies in Europe, they thought they were equal to the Germans and Russians. As unprepared for the war as Russia was, they were still better than the Austro-Hungarians. Yes, the Typhus epidemic that swept through the Balkans did not help things, if there was no epidemic, the Serbians would have held their own against the Austro-Hungarians.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by Trintron

True, everyone was fixated on a short war, all of the powers involved in WW1 thought they would just march their armies around Europe, fight a few battles and sign a armistice setting quickly ending hostilities and everything would go like clock work. Many European nations looked to the Franco-Prussian war as a case study on what would happen, instead they should have studied the US Civil War.

On another subject, Austria-Hungry was the least prepared for WW1 and most old fashion of all the armies in Europe, they thought they were equal to the Germans and Russians. As unprepared for the war as Russia was, they were still better than the Austro-Hungarians. Yes, the Typhus epidemic that swept through the Balkans did not help things, if there was no epidemic, the Serbians would have held their own against the Austro-Hungarians.

And this points segues nicely into the other direct legacy of WW1-the 1918 flu pandemic that killed 50-100 million-many times more than the total military and civilian death toll from the war itself-and is arguably one of the greatest human disasters in history-yet people hardly register it-and probably could tell you more about the Black Death than this one. Wiki has a very readable concise summary...

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by Trintron

Yes, the Typhus epidemic that swept through the Balkans did not help things, if there was no epidemic, the Serbians would have held their own against the Austro-Hungarians.

One of the worst typhus outbreaks in history, but it's questionable whether the Serbs could have held out in 1915 even without it. They held OK against the Austro-Germans in the north and west, but two Bulgarian armies hitting their lines of communication from the east, in addition to everything else, was to much.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

From 18 July to the 11 November the Allies captured;
French 139.000POW and 1880guns
American 43,000 POW and 1421 guns
Belgian 14500 POW and 474 guns
British 188,700 POW and 2840 guns.

As you say Palo everything the Brits touched was a disaster.

By the way if the British hadn't held at Ypres in 1914 the Germans would have turned the French flank and Bob would have been your Uncle.

Both sides took lots of prisoners. In 1914, the British only held their line for one or two days, so far as I know, although many say their action was heroic. Maybe it was

In late 1917 / early 1918 many British thought the war was lost. Their line was broken, and Haig said "backs to the wall". No realistic person could say the British were winning anything, and it did look like a disaster at the time, from what we read

What finished the Germans in 1918 was Revolution at home caused mainly by the British Blockade -- there wasn't enough food, and hadn't been for years. And by the arrival of millions of Americans, which meant they couldn't win. That's why Germans did not want to continue

There was also the case of flu epidemic, which caused twice as many casualties among Germans as among Western Allies, if what I've read is true

The British enered the war without knowing what they were doing. And finished it not knowing what they were doing... invading the USSR, playing the fool in the Middle East, and much else (don't mention India)

With hindsight, the world would have been better, if the British had stayed out of WW1. But unfortunately, their politicians were as stupid & ignorant as everyone else's. Just a bit of cleverness would have made the difference- A European war did not have to become a world war, but Britain turned it into one

[time_killer]

There are no "winners" in any war.
I just hope we've evolved enough to not let them continue.

[haroldeye]

Both sides took lots of prisoners. In 1914, the British only held their line for one or two days, so far as I know, although many say their action was heroic. Maybe it was.

The figures I quoted referred to 1918. The British held the left of the French all through the 1914 Battles and made the Schlieffen plan unworkable. No Brits and the Hun would have outflanked the French. You obviously have not studied this period.

In late 1917 / early 1918 many British thought the war was lost. Their line was broken, and Haig said "backs to the wall". No realistic person could say the British were winning anything, and it did look like a disaster at the time, from what we read


Very few Britons thought the war was lost. There was a lot of politicking between Generals and Lloyd George calling for them to take charge but happily they failed. Haig's message was made after the German Lys offensive of March 1918. You may remember our Russian allies had been forced to make peace with the Germans and they were able to move most of their forces from the East to the West. German high command was aware that the Americans were in the war and would within a year be strong enough to make a real difference and so decided on one last big effort. Haigs order was

To ALL RANKS OF THE BRITISH ARMY IN FRANCE AND FLANDERS

Three weeks ago to-day the enemy began his terrific attacks against us on a fifty-mile front. His objects are to separate us from the French, to take the Channel Ports and destroy the British Army.

In spite of throwing already 106 Divisions into the battle and enduring the most reckless sacrifice of human life, he has as yet made little progress towards his goals.

We owe this to the determined fighting and self-sacrifice of our troops. Words fail me to express the admiration which I feel for the splendid resistance offered by all ranks of our Army under the most trying circumstances.

Many amongst us now are tired. To those I would say that Victory will belong to the side which holds out the longest. The French Army is moving rapidly and in great force to our support.

There is no other course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause each one of us must fight on to the end. The safety of our homes and the Freedom of mankind alike depend upon the conduct of each one of us at this critical moment.

(Signed) D. Haig F.M.
Commander-in-Chief
British Armies in France

General Headquarters
Tuesday, April 11th, 1918

The Kaiserschlact actually failed and it failed because the Germans outran their artillery and their supplies. The Allies fell back onto their supply dumps and were always blessed with plenty of arty. The Allies did not make the same mistake later in the year.

What finished the Germans in 1918 was Revolution at home caused mainly by the British Blockade -- there wasn't enough food, and hadn't been for years. And by the arrival of millions of Americans, which meant they couldn't win. That's why Germans did not want to continue

I see you agree with Mr Hitler. Actually the German army was beaten in the field. Still very dangerous (as the Soviets found out in 44/45) but beaten. Pershing wanted to punish the Germans but the French and British had lost too many men to lose anymore just to show who was hardest.

The British enered the war without knowing what they were doing. And finished it not knowing what they were doing... invading the USSR, playing the fool in the Middle East, and much else (don't mention India)

The British entered the war because they were obliged to defend the neutrality of Belgium. Additionally the Kaiser had been putting himself into a position where he was threatening the British Empire. The British side of me is content to treat your comments on the Middle East etc with polite contempt. The Polish side is outraged at such hypocracy.

With hindsight, the world would have been better, if the British had stayed out of WW1. But unfortunately, their politicians were as stupid & ignorant as everyone else's. Just a bit of cleverness would have made the difference- A European war did not have to become a world war, but Britain turned it into one


It would have been better in the short run for Britain though at some time we would have had to square up to the kaiser. I don't mean to insult you Palo, you are one of the more interesting posters on this site, but your knowledge of the military and political position in Britain and Western Europe in 1914 is not much better than mine of the Russian revolution and that is pretty meagre.

[SanteeFats]

Originally Posted by time_killer

There are no "winners" in any war.
I just hope we've evolved enough to not let them continue.

Very nice sentiment TK. Totally unrealistic for centuries to come though, IMO. Just look around at the world today. As long as there are zealots who think it is their way or die there will be wars of various sizes.
Your idea will only be realized when virtually everyone on earth is at the same education, monetary, and thinks the same way. UMMM maybe not that good an idea on second thought.

[rustler]

Scoundrel was talking about the scuttling of the German High Seas fleet at Scapa Flow a few days or so back. Here is a very interesting little film showing the salvage of some of the ships back in the early 1920's.

Amazing what they could do with relatively primitive means at the time.


In the film you will see people climbing tall chimney like structures on the upturned hulls, these were air locks, that they fitted so that they could pump in air and force the water out of the wreck, both to make the wreck more bouyant, and so that they would work inside the wreck without using divers too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzuxekGZWQM

[rustler]

I couldn't post this earlier........


December 16th was the 100th anniversary of the German navy shelling the east coast town of Hartlepool. The first attack on mainland Britian during WWI. 130 people were killed during the attack which lasted just an hour.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30500848


One of the reasons for keeping the fleet in Scotland on readiness for sea, was the fear of a German invasion along this coast, where defences were thin, and most troops were already in France, so there would gave been little to oppose such an invasion at the time.
After this attack, more ships were placed at Harwich, and submarines placed further out to sea to give warning of the German fleet putting to sea.

[Trintron]

I found this link on Google Books, I thought that I would post it on this thread; like other posters I was unable to post this because the forum was down for a while. .

It's called the Austrian Mind, basically it discusses Austrian society during the Austro-Hugarian Empire. I have only read through bits and pieces of it, parts of it are very relevant to the the events leading up to WW1.

For example, dueling was still very common place in Austrian Society up until the out break of War in 1914, especially for military officers. The Emperor Franz-Joesph was still know to have pardon military officers who killed someone in a duel, even though it was technically a punishable crime.

The Austrian Mind by Willian M Johnston