Things Noticeable this week

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by palo5

hmm... didn't Cassius Clay convert to Islam?

Clay and O'Connor are vastly different, Clay was no drama queen to begin with and far more intelligent the her, he had principals, she's just .... dunno but also think she don't know what she is.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Clay was no drama queen

Hehehe! I wouldn't describe him as a "queen", but he was very good at drama

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by palo5

Hehehe! I wouldn't describe him as a "queen", but he was very good at drama

He was a master at whatever he did

[Greenman]

Cassius Clay I think joined the Friends of Islam who were quite radical.

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by Brecht

I'd say Sinéad O'Connor is a mentally ill person and has been for years. Only a mentally weak and totally messed up person would convert to Islam. It's perfect for those who seek "guidance" and strong authority to submit to because they're uncapable of getting their shit together.

And this differs from Christianity in what way?

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Greenman

Cassius Clay I think joined the Friends of Islam who were quite radical.

Radical? -- anything can be called radical if it doesn't support the establishment, even when the establishment are radical themselves

When he refused to be drafted for Vietnam, he said (paraphrased) "Why should I fight people who've never done anything against me or the US, when the US itself won't protect me from US-establishment racism?"

No doubt that was radical for many, but it wasn't violent, and it's impossible to say he wasn't right

[Greenman]

I am just waiting for some wag to suggest Notey Mc Noteface for the british scientist to be added to the new £50 note. Personally I would go with Stephen Hawking or for a woman Ada Lovelace.

[gedly]

Funny to think that the Daily Star is 40 today.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by gedly

Funny to think that the Daily Star is 40 today.

Do they mean my newspaper ..... they surely do

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by palo5

hmm... didn't Cassius Clay convert to Islam? :confused

Like Estreeter said, he was a different case. Many African-Americans converted to Islam at the time he did as a protest against "White Christian America". Some argued that Christianity is a religion imposed on black people by their white slave owners, which is true, but Muslim Arabs were in the African slave trade business way before the Europeans.

However, my point is that the motives of some black Americans to adopt the Islamic faith were rooted in the racial discrimination they were facing back then and to some extent still do. Cassius Clay/Mohammad Ali did the right thing to refuse to let himself be used as a killing tool for a country that treated his own people like crap. He is a hero in that regard. But I doubt his conversion did anything to improve his own status as a respected and emancipated American citizen. He gained all that through his own hard work and courage.

What exactly are the motives of a psycho mess like O'Connor to become Muslim? Was she ever opressed or facing discrimination like Mohammad Ali? She went through all kinds of identity crises ever since she became popular. In her early career she'd claim she was a "dyke" and loved to play the rebellious feminist from her lofty position. She was right to attack the Catholic Church that was so privileged and powerful in Ireland until pretty much recently. I'm glad the Irish have had enough of the Pope and his silly club as evidenced by the recent overturn of the abortion ban.

But the way Sinéad O'Connor went against the Church was all about anger and attention-seeking which resulted in her being perceived as a public clown rather than a serious critic of the conservative and backward conditions in her country. And now she converts to an even more conservative and backward religion that never went through a stage of reformation, let alone being subjected to a profound, critical examination in the tradition of modern scholarship and the principles established by the Enlightenment. Islamic theology does not accept questioning of the Koran which is taken literally. In the West only the fundamentalist Evangelicals take the Bible literally but this approach to the Koran is the standard in the Islamic world.

From a theological point of view, Christianity is as silly as Islam but the devil is in the details. However, most Christians, even in conservative countries like Ireland, Poland, Italy or the US, to include a country with a Protestant majority, lead secular lives where Christianity is mostly a "cultural thing". When someone in Austria says he or she is Catholic, it's merely a word on paper as they never go to Church or devote any of their time to the exploration of the Christian religion. Their Christianity is pretty much limited to the holiday season while the rest, like myself, left the Church a long time ago because we're atheists.

I hope you'll find an answer to your question as well, charliels531. Relativism is almost always the wrong approach if you're interested in facts.