Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[deepsepia]

I had my feet up in front of the fire this afternoon reading Napoleon's Continental System, while not surfing estimable vintage porn.

One of the historical notes that resonates is that today, Putin's Russia is playing the role of Pitt's "Perfidious Albion". That is, Russia has by far the clearest interest-- they win by weakening European Union, just as Britain used its gold to buy off German Princes two centuries ago; and think of Wellington bleeding Napoleon in Spain, nothing more effective than choking your enemy on his own ambitions.

As one looks at the mess of the Leave/Remain negotiations, I think its clear that the only party that is an unequivocal "winner" is Moscow. Give Vladimir Putin this: playing a pretty bad hand, he's outsmarted far wealthier nations, achieving stunning victories with a remarkable economy.

Like the judo-ka that he is, he used the mass and momentum of larger adversaries against them.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by laberbacke

What makes you say that? I stated the statistics, no more and no less.



Personally I've come to believe that in order for democracy to represent people's views proportionally and be fully legitimate, voting must be compulsory, as it is the only way to neutralize the inherent overbalance towards old voters (who have all the time in the world to go voting) that always distorts every election and referendum towards the more conservative side. This isn't just a problem in the UK, but in every country where voting is not compulsory.



If voting had been compulsory in this referendum, Remain would have won.


That being said, the Brexit side prevailed in the system that is.

The point you are failing to mention in passing-and not accidentally I suspect-is that older voters have something that younger voters will never have-the benefit of hindsight and experience-something that no amount of angst, social media or tech savvy can substitute for-in this specific case the older voters have lived through and experienced first hand the various iterations of British life before EEC , before and during the EU era-and regardless of the propaganda are in a position to far better evaluate the situation than younger voters.

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

older voters have something that younger voters will never have-the benefit of hindsight and experience..... the older voters have lived through and experienced first hand..... the various iterations of British life before EEC , before and during the EU era

It's true - although some of us were drugged or drunk for long periods

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

The point you are failing to mention in passing-and not accidentally I suspect-is that older voters have something that younger voters will never have-the benefit of hindsight and experience-something that no amount of angst, social media or tech savvy can substitute for-in this specific case the older voters have lived through and experienced first hand the various iterations of British life before EEC , before and during the EU era-and regardless of the propaganda are in a position to far better evaluate the situation than younger voters.

No, the olders have read 45 years of anti-Europe propaganda, and are not as educated. They are less traveled, and have little insight because they speak only one language

Not to disrespect them, but it is fair their severe knowledge limitations are known

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by palo5

No, the olders have read 45 years of anti-Europe propaganda, and are not as educated. They are less traveled, and have little insight because they speak only one language

Not to disrespect them, but it is fair their severe knowledge limitations are known

Wow, how many more crass stereotypes can you cram into one post ???

I am an older British citizen who has lived throughout all our EEC/EU membership, I am very well educated, I am also very well travelled, the only continent I have not visited (apart from Antarctica) is Northern America, the only aspect of your post I relate to is I speak only one language fluently but I always learn common phrases wherever I travel and spend time with the locals in bars and cafes. If I was planning to stay anywhere abroad for a long time then I would make an effort to learn the lingo.
When I was at school languages were not as big a part of the curriculum as they are now, I chose to study subjects that actually interested me like Geography, History, English Literature, Chemistry and even Mathematics.

Knowing a foreign language does not automatically give anyone any actual insight into the people who live in another country.

[DB83]

There were some 'interesting', maybe biased, statistics a few pages back.

Now I love statistics. Maybe someone could be kind enough to look this up but I do have a theory.

In the GE prior to the Referendum what was the actual % of votes cast compared to those that were eligible to vote.

Same for the Referendum - maybe that was stated in a rather obtuse way

Same for the GE after the Referendum.

My suspicion is that the middle of these three was the highest (even with all the younger voters being 'conned' by Corbyn last time out)

So if the young did not vote then they have little right of complaint. Same with all the current day whingers from all sides of the spectrum who could not accept the result and would want vote after vote until they get the result they want but are happy to accept the result when it suits them.

What I find odd about all the current seannigins (sp?) is why the daft agreement was not put before Parliament before the 27 ratified it (as if they were not going to). A big no might have made the EU think again. And why call it a 'draft' agreement. It was never going to be changed. It's the shorter 'future relationship' document that has been tweaked.

On the earlier discussion about language, I think you will find that many an older European citizen is only fluent in their native tongue. When I was in grammar-school (the proper grammar-school) we were taught French which I learnt (and passed) to O'Level - even had to do an oral test (and billy muggings was one who was sampled for that). Forgotten most of it now.

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by palo5

No, the olders have read 45 years of anti-Europe propaganda, and are not as educated.

Rather a a sweeping generalisation ! Many of we UK oldsters born in the 50's are extremely well educated, in real universities with academic rigour too, unlike these modern pseudo institutions.

In my role as a landlord I'm surrounded for most of the year by 20 year old Eurogirls, all clever at school, all studying some bollocks or other at university, and I'm staggered at their total ignorance of history and politics , not only of the world, but of Europe and even their own foul countries.

They've all been on a thousand cheap jaunts on budget airlines but they know nothing of the places they've been. Travelling has broadened their arses more than their minds. [ I like a nice arse mind you!!]

They all favour the EU so I asked them the other night who was their Euro MP. They didn't have a clue , turned out that two of them had never voted - ever!

So if these are the elite youth of Europe who are supposed to be smarter and wiser than their parents - God help us !!!!

As I write this my three girls are downstairs watching a fucking Disney movie on Netflix

[scoundrel]

I have a degree, I speak two languages (though I admit my French gets a lot better after three days in France); but just as important IMHO is that I know I need to listen as well as talk and that I will still be learning every day between now and when I die. I think, Palo, you have fallen into the error of Vincent Cable and looked down upon the British older generation without taking the trouble to check whether what you say about them is true or fair.

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I have a degree, I speak two languages (though I admit my French gets a lot better after three days in France);

My French girl was very amused at my pronunciation of the French word for "frog"

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

My French girl was very amused at my pronunciation of the French word for "frog"

Does "grenouille" have a double meaning (double entendre) if mispronounced? For example the English word "face" is pronounced exactly the same as the French noun, fesse - fesse is a word for the posterior. "Ausfahrt" is the German word for a motorway exit - Aus meaning out and fahren being the German verb "To Go". But in English it connotes flatulence.