What If`s - Causes and effects - Discuss (?)

[Mal Hombre]

What if Prince Edward,Son of Edward III had lived another twenty years ? His son Richard would have come to the throne as an adult with perhaps a more mature outlook and maybe avoided provoking his own downfall.If Henry Bolingbroke had not felt the need to take the throne, the Wars of the Roses would have been avoided and there would almost certainly been no Tudor dynasty.The Plantagenets might still be on the throne now..

[haroldeye]

Agreed but at the final count they say only 125,000 of those were British. Also and not to be harsh but our two finest divisions (5th and 50th) had been sent forward by the much maligned (Unjustly in my opinion) General Gort to reinforce the line the Belgians were desperately trying to hold . A job those two did superbly , buying the retreating B.E.F vital time and while against overwhelming odds, until they were decimated and overrun.

Can't speak for 5 Div but you are quite correct 50 Div was one of the finest formations of the Army.

Lets remember our expeditionary force was in the main an army of very weak professionalism (Apart from the two divisions i named before) mostly made up of part time soldiers and officers who`d bought their ranks. Not to say they weren`t brave enough when lead correctly ,or if given the proper tools for the job . But still they were hardly seasoned veterans or irreplaceable . The bulk of our regular forces were already spread out across the Empire (Takes a moment to sigh at the thought of the Empire ).

Nearly right except 50 Div was one of those Territorial Divisions made up of part time soldiers and officers who were also TA but hadn't bought the rank. They must have been reasonably brave, certainly the first VC to the BEF was won by a Territorial officer in the Durhams who went back for one of his soldiers. Oh and that VC on D Day - he was a Territorial too. The GOC 5 Div was a man called Franklyn and he put together Frankforce which gave the Germans one of their few checks on the way to Paris. He used 5 Div tanks but his infantry were 50 Div Territorials from the DLI.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

What if Prince Edward,Son of Edward III had lived another twenty years ? His son Richard would have come to the throne as an adult with perhaps a more mature outlook and maybe avoided provoking his own downfall.If Henry Bolingbroke had not felt the need to take the throne, the Wars of the Roses would have been avoided and there would almost certainly been no Tudor dynasty.The Plantagenets might still be on the throne now..

I wonder how King Edward (IV as he would have been) would have handled the Peasants' Revolt though? The Black Prince was noted in his own day for burning on a very short fuse. Aged only 14, Richard II handled this difficulty with a great deal of low cunning and was successful in overcoming a very large popular uprising. Would his father have handled it as cleverly?

[Mal Hombre]

Without the regency of Edward's dubious brother John of Gaunt,There might not have been a revolt,He was the focus of the peasants' grievances.

[rupertramjet]

Lets ask the question where would Britain be without the Territorials?

Firstly in 1940, and despite the oft seen view that the BEF was a professional Army, as Harold says it was massively supported by Territorials. In modern times the TA have been on active service in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the Camp Bastion Field Hospital is staffed by some of the finest medics in the NHS, almost exclusively TA, could we have fought both these campaigns? Yes but without the reserve forces we would have been struggling even more. As for the current reserve forces, some of the highest decorations awarded in the last ten years have gone to them, including The George Cross, Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, and The Military Cross.

During my career the position of the TA in the minds of regulars has dramatically changed. They are no longer seen as a bit of a joke, but hugely committed and vital parts of the Modern Armed Forces. So to answer my own question. We would be totally screwed!

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Without the regency of Edward's dubious brother John of Gaunt,There might not have been a revolt,He was the focus of the peasants' grievances.

He was the focus, but was he the underlying cause? There had been a change in the climate, with the medieval warm period coming to an end. The first half of the 14th Century featured cold and wet summers, disappointing crop yields and increasing hardship for the serf classes. The health and vigour of the population declined due to malnutrition and Europe was softened up for the bubonic plague when this disease arrived. No one can really say how bad the Black Death was, but estimates of the death rate across Europe start at 30% and many serious scholars have reviewed the surviving evidence and projected a likely death rate of over 50%. It is certainly recorded that in many places the dead went unburied because the living were too few to bury the dead. The de-population of the countryside solved the famine problem and left large areas of land derelict and uncultivated, or at least turned over to pasture.

The 1381 Peasants Revolt was one of the death throes of feudalism in England. It was a signal that the labour shortage caused by the huge winnowing of the population between 1347 and 1353 had strengthened the peasants in their dealings with their feudal overlords. There was upper class resistance to the idea that labour was mobile and could demand higher wages. John of Gaunt brought in laws to set maximum wages and forbid peasants to relocate: he was seeking to enforce a reintroduction of de-facto serfdom. It didn't work because the peasants had too much bargaining power. The Revolt was suppressed, but there was nothing to stop workers voting with their feet, law or no law. It was a great social change, and of course those who were adversely affected and who had power and influence did their utmost to resist it. I suspect that had it not been John of Gaunt, wages restrictions would have been enacted in the King's name by AN Other and the discontent which led eventually to the Peasants Revolt would have still been there.

[seany65]

Originally Posted by blondifan

The rooster, ..surely?

Interesting reply brian. Who, or what created the creator though?, I wonder.

It was the Egg. Why? Birds evolved from Dinosaurs and they used to lay Eggs, so Eggs existed before Birds.

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by blondifan

Who, or what created the creator though?, I wonder.

This is really easy to answer. God.

And it works that way. Man will build a big bang machine. At some point in the future. Of course, just for scientific reasons. Not for a bomb. And bang, a new universe is created. Stars and planets start to form and eventually 'intelligent' life arises. This 'intelligent' life form is called 'man', everything else is called profit. And at some point in the future man will build a big bang machine. Case closed.

This is written in the Bible. God created the universe, and man in his own image.

[MaxJoker]

Adolf Hitler had been bigger artistically bent ,



Would Sauerkraut nowadays be more popular