October 16th, 2015, 01:46 AM | #71 |
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The over population of red deer is a key reason why so much of the Scottish hill terrain is open moorland
See what happens when you don't let the hunters loose. |
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October 16th, 2015, 02:27 AM | #72 | |
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scoundrel,
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There has been extensive research here on their effects on all kinds of wildlife. All of it positive. Wolves, deer and moose populations are reliant on each other. Meaning that wolf populations cannot increase if they don't have an adequate prey population. Wolves are opportunistic so they will take livestock. But, if I remember correctly, they normally won't do that unless they can't find anything else. The reasons are unclear but we do know wolves are extremely smart. And a "pack" is more precisely described as a family. Meaning that the alpha male and female are from separate packs while most of the remaining members are the kids, aunts, uncles and possibly even the grandparents. All of that meaning that they appear to pass information down the line from parent to child. They seem to know that killing livestock may not be in their best interests. Nowadays, most states with a wolf population have a reparations program which pay for any livestock taken by a pack. Could go on and on but, to answer your question, you will have little to worry about if wolves are reintroduced. There are very few legitimate instances of wolves attacking humans. The few I know of were found to be cases of rabies. The reason most people worry is due to old European children's stories which always depict wolves in a negative light. As just one example of how American Indians are 180 degrees in opposition, wolves are considered one of our greatest friends and allies. You have nothing to worry about. If you want something interesting to read, pick up a book by Farley Mowat called 'Never Cry Wolf'. Been a long time since I read it but I'm sure its a pretty good read on your subject. |
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October 16th, 2015, 02:38 AM | #73 | |
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Likewise, most of the land is someone's property and we are not Communists. You may not shoot deer on someone's land or even walk on it (away from public footpaths) without their express permission. Just as a golf course will not allow the public to stroll around where golf balls might land on their heads, so most Highland Estates will not allow Joe Public to wander anywhere they please, in a landscape where people with rifles are shooting at deer. In the Highlands, most landowners make money out of their hunting rights, and part of the deal is that you are accompanied by a Ghillie (a professional deer stalker) who knows how to find the deer and who will also make sure you are fit to hold and fire a rifle. It is especially heinous to try to shoot deer from distance when you can't bloody shoot straight and he will physically remove your rifle and escort you off his employer's land if you are unfit to shoot deer.
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October 16th, 2015, 02:43 AM | #74 | |
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scoundrel,
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Wolves were never extirpated from there and their populations are generally pretty good. Provided, of course, the the moose population is doing OK. As long as moose populations are high, wolf populations will be high. Was probably up there for one or two weeks each year for around 20 years and ran into just about every type of wildlife you can imagine. Caught all kinds of fish from the lakes, stood off black bears hungry for our food and watched and enjoyed all kinds of birds. Supposedly, there are a lot of wolves in the area but we rarely saw them. We'd usually hear them at least once every year and occasionally run into their tracks. Especially down by the bases of waterfall. But they usually like to stay to themselves. I only remember actually seeing them once or twice in all that time. So to answer your question, every wolf pack I've ever run into "does a fade". I know I'd have no problem going back up there today and camping out with them. The black bears are much more of a problem. |
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October 16th, 2015, 03:48 AM | #75 | ||||
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Dr Pepper,
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My guess is this will mostly depend on the size of the pack thats reintroduced. At first they will be very wary and confused (they'll be wondering where the heck they are, how they got there and where are the missing members of their pack? But over time, as they become more familiar with their surroundings they'll become more confident and familiar. So if wolves populated the area previously they should do just fine. As has been well established, the wolf population, once they know the area and environment will probably grow for a time as their prey may not know how to deal with the wolves. But after a time wolf and prey populations will level off and actually begin to work in concert. Quote:
http://www.timberwolfinformation.org...appendix_e.htm Quote:
Also saw something relevant a while back about the wolves of Yellowstone (which were also reintroduced recently). A very unintended consequence. Don't remember the whole story so I'll have to see if I can find it. Wolves had been extirpated from Yellowstone for 80 years or so, so populations of their primary prey (American bison and Elk) had grown fairly large. I think wildlife managers were also having some type of problem with stream bank erosion which was brought about by the ungulates spending so much leisure time at the creeks. They were tearing up the creeks which was really messing up the water for the trout (which are a big tourist draw during the summer). So park managers had, for quite a few years, been trying to figure out what to do about this situation as they rely on both the ungulates and trout to bring in tourists every summer. And then the wolves came back. After a while, the ungulates learned they had to be a little more careful and couldn't hang around the creeks as much as they liked (the wolves found them more easily there). So they went to hang out elsewhere. That decision by the ungulates allowed a plant (forget which one) which had been eaten by the ungulates to grow again. And once they were growing that allowed the stream banks to be covered and not so amenable to erosion. Which really pleased the trout as they now had cleaner water to live in. This was a big revelation to the park managers. The reintroduction of wolves helped a plant which helped the waters which helped the trout to continue living in an environment of their choosing. Which continues to help Yellowstone bring in tourists and their money to the park every year. All due to the wolf! Quote:
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October 16th, 2015, 04:11 AM | #76 | |||
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scoundrel,
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And yes, people can co-exist with wolves. Large wolf populations exist around Ely, Minnesota and the people there rarely see them. Same in Montana and Wyoming. We have them in the northern part of Wisconsin but only a few hundred. My understanding is they've made little difference in deer populations. A harsh winter will kill more deer than almost any quantity of wolves. Quote:
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Keep us informed of how things are going. On this side of the pond we have a lot of experience with this. Probably lots of people willing to help as wolves are worth having around. |
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October 16th, 2015, 10:50 PM | #77 |
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9876543210-nice to see your input into the discussion. Personally I'd like to see the wolves reintroduced-and wish the program every success. On one of your points raised: deer fences are no problem at all-here in NZ we have been farming deer for decades-since the 1970s-and deer fencing is relatively simple to construct and emplace. My first job after graduating with my PhD was working on improving deer bloodtyping tests at MAF Invermay. [The NZ domesticated population is largely red deer, wapiti (=elk) and hybrids-hard to separate on appearance alone]
How much it would cost to ring fence an entire estate/valley system is entirely another matter.... Furthermore-a deerproof fence might well keep the deer safely corralled within the boundaries-except perhaps in the 'roar'.....but will it keep the wolves in as well? For obvious reasons I have no direct experience of wolves-but the closest thing I am familiar with is the German shepherd/alsatian breed of dog (widely used by the NZ police)-and they will leap a fairly decent fence...! My concerns as raised in my earlier post would be about how fast the wolf population grows-and what happens if they find local domestic stock a better prey option than the highland deer-and the predator prey relationship predictions fall apart. The real issue I suppose is how the local farmers will react to any such wolf incursions should they occur. The other point that is pertinent-it is I gather-many hundreds of years since wolves were extirpated from the Scottish highlands-their prey species then would have been deer, sheep, goats and perhaps cattle (I suspect a Highland longhorn would be more than an average pack of wolves could reasonably cope with unless it was injured or sick)-but modern domesticated sheep and cattle breeds are likely to be much less hardy and aggressive than their semi wild forbears-and hence likely to be easier prey. There has been talk of recreating extinct NZ species such as the moa-which would be spectacular if achieved-and is potentially achievable-just-with current technology. There is plenty of DNA material still around which could be exploited-and suitable sized modern vectors (emus, ostriches) in which the necessary manipulation would be achieved. But once you start that sort of thing where do you stop....why not do the Haast Eagle as well....;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haast%27s_eagle That would make hunting a far more even contest.....the Maori have apocryphal stories of these birds having a crack at small children from time to time-I can at least believe it was possible given the size of the thing... |
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October 17th, 2015, 01:35 AM | #78 | ||||||
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Dr Pepper,
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Don't know if there has been any research on this (I don't know of anyone even trying to fence in any more than one or two wolves, let alone an entire pack) but someone would have to bury the fence at least a few feet. Which would really add to the fence's cost. I don't know max sizes for wolves/german shepherds/ alsations but I'm pretty sure a male wolf could probably reach 250 pounds or so while a german shepherd might get to 150 or 200 pounds. Pretty sure a wolf, generally, are the largest of the dog species. Quote:
The problem will be that these young males will leave but won't be able to find mates. So new packs won't be able to be formed. Could they pair and mate with a Shepherd? Or some other breed? Mating yes. Pairing? I'm not sure. Haven't heard of any research on that. As far as local farmers/ranchers are concerned, well, they require some education. In the US, virtually everywhere the wolves have been reintroduced, the farmers/ranchers are usually the first to voice their dissatisfaction. It happened here in Wisconsin as well as Montana and Wyoming. Every once in a while I hear it still happens in Minnesota as wolves are expanding their ranges into areas they were extirpated from years ago. But I still don't think there is a big problem as I never hear much about them causing much of a problem (at least in Wisconsin). Quote:
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October 17th, 2015, 04:42 AM | #79 |
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October 17th, 2015, 05:47 AM | #80 |
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I wouldn't put it past you to kidnap one of the wolves and keep it for a guard dog. Your existing pets would probably bully it, poor thing.
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