Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

The PM is the Crown and Commander-in-Chief not the Queen.
He/she exercises the power of the crown. It is the power of the crown that is important not actually wearing one.
The King/Queen can do nothing at all about that, Bagehot was way out of date even at the time he was writing.

The PM exercises the Executive Prerogative Power of the Crown with no checks or balances in foreign policy and War.

I'm neither a defender of nor a supporter of the monarchy, but it clearly observable that the dividing up the symbolic and practical powers of the Chief into two different people does seem to make PM a more practical position. The US President has a ceremonial importance that the PM doesn't have.

Someone has, jokingly-but-not, suggested that the way out of our mess would be to "make Trump King". He has no interest in the business of government, but loves the ritual. Stick him in a palace and let professionals run the country.

None of which has much to do with EU and Brexit, though of course one is reminded of the intertwining of the English crown with Spain, France, and most recently Germany. Royal marriage was a traditional means to bridge nations into polities, no long relevant.

[vinceprince]

If Trump was a PM with the same sort of gutless Republican politicians being loyal to his agenda behind him in Parliament there is nothing to prevent making himself a ceremonial King as well in addition to abolishing the courts, House of Lords or anything else that may get in his way.

[bjcb0]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

If Trump was a PM with the same sort of gutless Republican politicians being loyal to his agenda behind him in Parliament there is nothing to prevent making himself a ceremonial King as well in addition to abolishing the courts, House of Lords or anything else that may get in his way.

And we have a precedent: Oliver Cromwell abolished the Lords and the Kingdoms of England, Scotland and Ireland to form the Commonwealth. He abolished Christmas too (although I think that was his colleague Harley, but it was his administration).

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

And what happened before Britain joined the EU-were goods transported in each direction by magic? This whole argument avoids the issue that there was a 'before Britain joined the EU' period-and things still worked then-not perhaps as smoothly as currently-and certainly with more paperwork-but the only issue will be-assuming Brexit occurs-is how obstructing the EU will choose to be-and perhaps would do well to recall that barriers are not unidirectional....as Herr Trump is finding out to his displeasure.

You don't seem to realise that the Channel tunnel was opened a year after the creation of the Single Market. To put it bluntly, there was no delivery across the Channel tunnel before the advent of the Single Market in 1993. With Brexit, there will be a huge legal void in many areas, and not just transportation. The problem with Brexiters is that they dismiss those issues as a non-story and don't provide any solution. The Irish border being the worst example of that attitude. At least, Barnier seems more sensible and cooperative than his British counterpart (https://www.theguardian.com/politics...h-border-issue).

Even if the UK and the EU achieve some kind of Canada-style deal, and that's a big if, the US-Canada border tells you that there will be much more red tape for lorries, in addition to fees. From the US Customs website (https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...e-transporting), here's what drivers need to provide when crossing the US-Canada border: 1. Complete manifest filled out properly; 2. Applicable CBP forms (i.e. CBP 3299 or CBP 7512 etc.,); 3. Proof of Bond (CBP 301); 4. Bill of Sale or Commercial Invoice (if applicable); 5. User Fee Decal (if participating); 6. FAST Card (if participating); 7. Permits issued by Federal Government (if required); 8. Importer/Immigrants Legal Documents (if moving to the U.S.); 9. Required Personal Documents and Identification. Also, drivers need to obtain a SCAC code and fax a letter to an office.

To answer your question, nothing can replace lorries. You may probably think of ferries and planes, but both will increase the costs and add disruption to the shipping process. Inevitably, trade will shrink and hit the UK and EU economies. The UK economy will be more affected because the EU accounts for 44% of UK trade, while the UK only accounts for 8% of EU trade.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by jacques22

You don't seem to realise that the Channel tunnel was opened a year after the creation of the Single Market. To put it bluntly, there was no delivery across the Channel tunnel before the advent of the Single Market in 1993. With Brexit, there will be a huge legal void in many areas, and not just transportation. The problem with Brexiters is that they dismiss those issues as a non-story and don't provide any solution. The Irish border being the worst example of that attitude. At least, Barnier seems more sensible and cooperative than his British counterpart (https://www.theguardian.com/politics...h-border-issue).

Even if the UK and the EU achieve some kind of Canada-style deal, and that's a big if, the US-Canada border tells you that there will be much more red tape for lorries, in addition to fees. From the US Customs website (https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...e-transporting), here's what drivers need to provide when crossing the US-Canada border: 1. Complete manifest filled out properly; 2. Applicable CBP forms (i.e. CBP 3299 or CBP 7512 etc.,); 3. Proof of Bond (CBP 301); 4. Bill of Sale or Commercial Invoice (if applicable); 5. User Fee Decal (if participating); 6. FAST Card (if participating); 7. Permits issued by Federal Government (if required); 8. Importer/Immigrants Legal Documents (if moving to the U.S.); 9. Required Personal Documents and Identification. Also, drivers need to obtain a SCAC code and fax a letter to an office.

To answer your question, nothing can replace lorries. You may probably think of ferries and planes, but both will increase the costs and add disruption to the shipping process. Inevitably, trade will shrink and hit the UK and EU economies. The UK economy will be more affected because the EU accounts for 44% of UK trade, while the UK only accounts for 8% of EU trade.

And you would have me believe that before the Channel Tunnel nothing crossed the Channel in either direction? You're being absurd-goods moved each direction-by whatever means. No one is claiming that things will be the same post Brexit if it occurs-but the gist of your argument implies it would be impossible-largely as a result of the bureaucracy involved. And quoting the US-Canada border regulations is about as pointless-in this scenario-as quoting Swiss naval routine orders...

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

And you would have me believe that before the Channel Tunnel nothing crossed the Channel in either direction? You're being absurd-goods moved each direction-by whatever means.

You are not listening. I already gave you a detailed answer:
Nothing can replace lorries. You may probably think of ferries and planes, but both will increase the costs and add disruption to the shipping process. Inevitably, trade will shrink and hit the UK and EU economies. The UK economy will be more affected because the EU accounts for 44% of UK trade, while the UK only accounts for 8% of EU trade.

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

No one is claiming that things will be the same post Brexit if it occurs-but the gist of your argument implies it would be impossible-largely as a result of the bureaucracy involved.

I'm not the one implying it. It's people working in the customs and transportation business saying it. See posts #4210 and #4232 for more details. Again, you don't seem to realise the legal implications of Brexit and the subsequent legal void that will pop up in many areas.

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

And quoting the US-Canada border regulations is about as pointless-in this scenario-as quoting Swiss naval routine orders...

Typical Brexiter, dismissing a fair argument without coming up with any solution!
On the contrary, mentioning the US-Canada border regulations makes sense in this case. Remember, it's Brexiters like Davis and Johnson who said they wanted a Canada plus deal with the EU. From the moment the British government rejects the Single Market, the Customs Union and EU laws, there are only 2 options left: a Canada-style deal and the no-deal scenario.
Also, both the UK and the EU wants a special partnership. NAFTA (the free trade area between Canada, the US and Mexico) is a special partnership and doesn't involve the constraints of the Single Market, Customs Union and EU laws.
But feel free to come up with better ideas. It's all about finding solutions to the current Brexit impasse ;-)

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by jacques22

You are not listening. I already gave you a detailed answer:
Nothing can replace lorries. You may probably think of ferries and planes, but both will increase the costs and add disruption to the shipping process. Inevitably, trade will shrink and hit the UK and EU economies. The UK economy will be more affected because the EU accounts for 44% of UK trade, while the UK only accounts for 8% of EU trade.

I see large numbers of continental lorries every time I go onto the British motorway network. There will be a problem for the continental side as well if the EU decides to get really anal about work permits for lorry drivers, because of course Britain would retaliate. Frankly, I don't think this will happen - I think its another scare tactic, and I am not very interested. But if it does happen, it won't make me regret leaving, just the opposite, because it will lend added confirmation to my view that the EU Commission, Parliament and bureaucracy are a bunch of tossers. Why would anyone actually want to be in the power of such stupid and petty people who would obstruct commerce for such a paltry reason?

[haroldeye]

You have just expressed the unpalatable truth that no zealot for the Commission will admit.

It is in the paramount interests of the peoples of Europe that a trade deal is worked out and that matters involving Security, both Intelligence, Military and criminal are still in place and are working. Yet we have a group of petulant trough-snouters who are more concerned with a willy waving contest to see who has all the power. To hear men like Juncker and Selmayr talk of the principles of the Union when they wouldn't understand a principle if it were written on the toe of a decent man's boot and hoofed into their nether regions really rather offends me.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I see large numbers of continental lorries every time I go onto the British motorway network. There will be a problem for the continental side as well if the EU decides to get really anal about work permits for lorry drivers, because of course Britain would retaliate. Frankly, I don't think this will happen - I think its another scare tactic, and I am not very interested. But if it does happen, it won't make me regret leaving, just the opposite, because it will lend added confirmation to my view that the EU Commission, Parliament and bureaucracy are a bunch of tossers. Why would anyone actually want to be in the power of such stupid and petty people who would obstruct commerce for such a paltry reason?

The French and EU authorities never care enough about it to intervene the French go on strike at Calais. Just action for a few hours results in tailbacks for days, you have to live near it to understand the total chaos that results for travellers and business.

It will give plenty of time for all those illegal immigrants to climb into lorries and get into the UK. One big problem solved for the EU.

[jacques22]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

You have just expressed the unpalatable truth that no zealot for the Commission will admit.

It is in the paramount interests of the peoples of Europe that a trade deal is worked out and that matters involving Security, both Intelligence, Military and criminal are still in place and are working. Yet we have a group of petulant trough-snouters who are more concerned with a willy waving contest to see who has all the power. To hear men like Juncker and Selmayr talk of the principles of the Union when they wouldn't understand a principle if it were written on the toe of a decent man's boot and hoofed into their nether regions really rather offends me.

In the era of narcissism, it's always the other's fault, i.e. Britannia is a beauty while Europa is an ugly bitch.

The truth is, the UK created that Brexit mess. It took the Brits 2 years to come up with a flawed plan. And they still don't realise that Brexit will bring chaos because of their own fault, not the EU's fault. In today's Independent: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8527731.html. Once the UK is out of the EU, the Europeans keep their deals, while the UK has to re-negotiate all of them because it's no longer an EU member. Your choice!

To answer your point, of course it is in the interest of both the UK and the EU to have a deal. The EU has already said that they will keep cooperating with the UK on military, intelligence and criminal matters, but not at the same intimate level as with EU members, because of trust and legal issues. Basically, the Europeans don't want the UK to act as a Trojan horse for the Americans.

And the UK is the one responsible for the stalemate with a trade deal. The Brits are making unacceptable demands: they reject the Single Market, annual payments to the EU and EU laws, but they still want access to the Single Market for goods and on top of that they want to collect custom duties for the EU, taking away the EU's sovereignty. It's been clear for Barnier and Davis that a Canada-style deal is the only serious option left, but May keeps persisting with that rubbish Chequers plan. Your choice!