The First World War - Page 8

**otokonomidori** · March 24th, 2012, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palo5

Gallipoli was the result of stupid thought and lack of analysis at the highest level. However, such mismanagement was not uncommon at that time

Tannenberg?

**Tmee2020** · March 24th, 2012, 09:57 AM

Everyone seemed to have their own idea about how the Gallipoli campagn would be run, but it started as a naval assault to force the straits. The plan rests on the proposition that once British ships appear off Constantinople the Turkish people will not fight. The army attached to the naval force will help smash the forts and garrison Constantinople, which will be handed to the Russians. The author is Churchill.

De Robeck, the naval commander, made the main assault on March 18. Three battleships were sunk and another three ships crippled. It had been a complete failure.
On March 22 there was a conference, attended by De Robeck, Rear-Admiral Wemyss, Hamilton the army commander, Braithwaite his chief of staff, and Birdwood the ANZAC corps commander. From Hamilton's diary de Robeck makes it clear the navy cannot get through without all his troops.
There are different versions of the conference. Hamilton believes the army landings will be accompanied by another naval attack. De Robeck appears to have decided against attacking until the army has taken the southern end of the peninsula. Hamilton's offer of troops seems to have given de Robeck the chance to backtrack on another attack.
Hamilton's version of events is supported by Birdwood.

The Turks and von Sanders, their commander, had another four weeks to prepare.
The terrain on Gallipoli is riddled with gullies and ridges, with little water. The landings never had a hope of succeeding and never got close.

**Ennath** · March 24th, 2012, 11:06 AM

March 24, 1915
Diplomatic Relations Chile protests the violation of its territorial waters during the battle at Juan Fernandez.
Turkish Command Otto Liman von Sanders is offered command of Turkish 5th Army, defending Gallipoli. He accepts.

March 24, 1916
War at Sea The U-Boat U-29 torpedoes and badly damages the French passenger ship Sussex as it sails from Dieppe to Folkestone. Several of the 380 die, including Americans. Another fatality is the famed Spanish composer Enrique Granados. The ship remains afloat. The Wilson administration sends a protest and an ultimatum: Germany must cease unrestricted submarine warfare or the United States will break off diplomatic relations.
Ireland Authorities raid the Gaelic Press offices in Dublin.
Eastern Front The week long Lake Naroch offensive has succeeded in capturing only two lines of German trenches stretching between Lakes Naroch and Vishniev and now the thaw has left the swampy parts of the terrain impassible.

March 24, 1917
Western Front The French clear the right bank of the Oise from north of Vaudreuil to the suburbs of La Fere. The British take Roisel, near Peronne.
Russia The armed forces declare their loyalty to the Provisional Government. In Helsingfors, the Finns form a Socialist majority government.
Greece Allied Ministers return to Athens. The Greek government, however, demands the withdrawal of Italian troops from Epirus.
Diplomatic Relations Czernin stresses to Sixtus and Xavier that any negotiations must be held in strictest secrecy to prevent Germany from discovering that Austria is pursuing a separate peace. Karl gives Sixtus a letter detailing peace terms.
United States Navy Secretary Josephus Daniels meets with shipbuilders and places orders for 24 destroyers.

March 24, 1918
Western Front 3rd Army’s 5th Corps, at the junction with 5th Army, has held fast, but in the early morning realizes that withdrawal is inevitable and abandons Flesquieres. A full-scale British retreat is in progress. The Germans are held in desperate fighting at Bapaume. They cross the Somme between Peronne and Ham, taking Nesle. Further south, they take Guiscard and Chauny. By evening, Hutier’s troops have advanced 17 miles from their start line, Below’s troops have pushed up to 15. Troops on both sides are approaching exhaustion, but there is no let-up. Deeply concerned, Petain goes in search of Haig and expresses pessimism over the possibility of rescuing Gough’s 5th Army and about the prospect of his own forces being attacked in the Champagne sector, convincing Haig that he can expect no help from the French commander as he intends, if the Germans advance further, to fall back south to protect Paris, uncovering the British right. The two agree upon the Somme River as the new dividing line between their armies. Haig then wires a message to London requesting that War Minister Lord Milner and chief of staff Sir Henry Wilson be sent to the front to confer with him and asking for “Foch or some other French general who will fight” to be given supreme command. Lloyd George’s concern has already prompted him to send Milner, who having missed Haig during the day, motors on to Versailles to confer with Sir Henry Rawlinson, Britain’s representative on the Supreme War Council.
The Paris gun resumes shelling. 22 shells fall on the city and its suburbs.
War in the Air Although the Germans have massed their largest concentration of aircraft yet for the offensive, the Allies are able to bring in enough to swamp them. The Germans have already lost air superiority over the battle. British bombers hit Mannheim and Cologne.
Finland The Red Guards’ retreat is cut off south of Tampere and the siege of the city itself begins. It is already the largest battle in Scandinavian history to date.
Palestine British columns move toward Es Salt.

March 24, 1919
Hungary Fighting breaks out between Hungarian and Rumanian troops along the Dniestr. Hungary declares war against Czechoslovakia and begins incursions over the Slovak border.

**deepsepia** · March 24th, 2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmee2000

Everyone seemed to have their own idea about how the Gallipoli campagn would be run, but it started as a naval assault to force the straits. The plan rests on the proposition that once British ships appear off Constantinople the Turkish people will not fight. The army attached to the naval force will help smash the forts and garrison Constantinople, which will be handed to the Russians. The author is Churchill.

Its interesting that Churchill remained wedded to the idea of attacking "the soft underbelly of Europe" his entire career -- I'm not sure where the idea came from, but he's very much devoted to this in World War Two as well.

**palo5** · March 25th, 2012, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleetwood77

Tannenberg?

Yes, that is one example. But Tannenberg was head-shaking tactical stupidity and lack of communication between armies. Gallipoli was strategic lunacy and had a different character

**palo5** · March 25th, 2012, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Its interesting that Churchill remained wedded to the idea of attacking "the soft underbelly of Europe" his entire career -- I'm not sure where the idea came from, but he's very much devoted to this in World War Two as well.

I think he wanted to protect India, and to do that he wanted to protect Suez. Nothing else explains his obsession, imho

**palo5** · March 25th, 2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmee2000

Les Carlyon, Gallipoli

I bought that book in Australia. Mr Carlyon must be recommended

I have posted requests everywhere I know (AU/RU/FI/D/UK/US) for his work "The Great War" published 2006, but it appears unobtainable anywhere

Can anyone here help?

**Tmee2020** · March 25th, 2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palo5

I bought that book in Australia. Mr Carlyon must be recommended

I have posted requests everywhere I know (AU/RU/FI/D/UK/US) for his work "The Great War" published 2006, but it appears unobtainable anywhere

Can anyone here help?

Yeah I've got it palo.

Or else I've lent it to someone and they've got it.

Here's a site selling it, I think you would be able to get hold of a copy next time you are out here.

Quote:

http://www.fishpond.com.au/Books/Gre...te_banner_id=1

**Ennath** · March 25th, 2012, 11:11 AM

March 25, 1915
Eastern Front A Russian attack in the Carpathians takes 5700 more prisoners.

March 25, 1916
Russia At the urging of his wife, Tsar Nicholas II dismisses his Minister of War, General A. A. Polivanov, an opponent of Rasputin. Polivanov has been responsible for greatly improving the systems of training and supplying the army. He is replaced by General D. S. Shuvaev. The new minister is 62 and apparently unable to follow reports. The ouster of Polivanov is seen by the western allies as a serious blow to the Russian war effort.
Eastern Front There are minor Russian gains in the Jacobstadt region.
French Command Rocques becomes Minister of War. After a week’s interregnum, Augustin Gerard replaces him at 1st Army.

March 25, 1917
Russian Command General Alexeev is named Commander in Chief with Anton Denikin as Chief of Staff. Grand Duke Nicholas retires to his estate in the Crimea. He eventually emigrates to France, where he dies in 1926.
Russia The new government accepts all the responsibilities of the previous regime. All decorations (except the Order of St. George) are abolished. To ensure a supply of grain, the government declares the grain trade a government monopoly and mandates that grains be sold only to representatives of the government at prices fixed by the government, thus exacerbating discontent among the peasants, who already were disgruntled by their inability to appropriate the lands of their landlords.
Eastern Front A German attack in the Dvinsk sector is repulsed.
Morocco French troops take Ouijan from nationalist rebels.
Diplomatic Relations The U.S. Legation at Brussels is removed to Le Havre. Its Belgian relief work is passed on to other neutrals.

March 25, 1918
Western Front Sir Henry Wilson arrives at GHQ in Doullens. He listens indulgently to Haig, although he has little use for the commander or his ideas on the conduct of war. Bapaume falls in a night attack. The advance slows a bit, but continues.
The Germans lack the means of rapidly exploiting a breakthrough; the entire army possesses only 35,000 trucks, running on iron wheels due to the shortage of rubber for tires, which quickly tear up the roads and are not suitable for transporting troops. There is also a shortage of horses, most of whom are undernourished and scarcely up to the task of hauling heavy guns long distances over bad terrain.
The Paris gun fires 6 shells. It does some damage, but it is clearly not the war winner its expense would have justified.
Palestine Es Salt falls. Rain and sleet slow the advance.
Caucasus Turkish troops cross the prewar Turkish-Russian border.

March 25, 1920
Ireland The first “Black and Tans” auxiliaries arrive to stiffen the security forces. They develop a reputation for brutality.

**palo5** · March 25th, 2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmee2000

Here's a site selling it, I think you would be able to get hold of a copy next time you are out here.

Thanks, tmee

My Alzheimers, dementia and alcohol-filled brain decided I should order the good-priced book (A$27,--) with an insane postage of $32,-- elsewhere

Someone should shoot me for stupidity, but I want the book

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March 24th, 2012, 09:57 AM	#72
Tmee2020 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Aust Posts: 4,195 Thanks: 209,836 Thanked 71,434 Times in 4,151 Posts	Everyone seemed to have their own idea about how the Gallipoli campagn would be run, but it started as a naval assault to force the straits. The plan rests on the proposition that once British ships appear off Constantinople the Turkish people will not fight. The army attached to the naval force will help smash the forts and garrison Constantinople, which will be handed to the Russians. The author is Churchill. De Robeck, the naval commander, made the main assault on March 18. Three battleships were sunk and another three ships crippled. It had been a complete failure. On March 22 there was a conference, attended by De Robeck, Rear-Admiral Wemyss, Hamilton the army commander, Braithwaite his chief of staff, and Birdwood the ANZAC corps commander. From Hamilton's diary de Robeck makes it clear the navy cannot get through without all his troops. There are different versions of the conference. Hamilton believes the army landings will be accompanied by another naval attack. De Robeck appears to have decided against attacking until the army has taken the southern end of the peninsula. Hamilton's offer of troops seems to have given de Robeck the chance to backtrack on another attack. Hamilton's version of events is supported by Birdwood. The Turks and von Sanders, their commander, had another four weeks to prepare. The terrain on Gallipoli is riddled with gullies and ridges, with little water. The landings never had a hope of succeeding and never got close.

March 24th, 2012, 11:06 AM	#73
Ennath Vintage Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 6,813 Thanks: 26,898 Thanked 80,767 Times in 6,812 Posts	March 24, 1915 Diplomatic Relations Chile protests the violation of its territorial waters during the battle at Juan Fernandez. Turkish Command Otto Liman von Sanders is offered command of Turkish 5th Army, defending Gallipoli. He accepts. March 24, 1916 War at Sea The U-Boat U-29 torpedoes and badly damages the French passenger ship Sussex as it sails from Dieppe to Folkestone. Several of the 380 die, including Americans. Another fatality is the famed Spanish composer Enrique Granados. The ship remains afloat. The Wilson administration sends a protest and an ultimatum: Germany must cease unrestricted submarine warfare or the United States will break off diplomatic relations. Ireland Authorities raid the Gaelic Press offices in Dublin. Eastern Front The week long Lake Naroch offensive has succeeded in capturing only two lines of German trenches stretching between Lakes Naroch and Vishniev and now the thaw has left the swampy parts of the terrain impassible. March 24, 1917 Western Front The French clear the right bank of the Oise from north of Vaudreuil to the suburbs of La Fere. The British take Roisel, near Peronne. Russia The armed forces declare their loyalty to the Provisional Government. In Helsingfors, the Finns form a Socialist majority government. Greece Allied Ministers return to Athens. The Greek government, however, demands the withdrawal of Italian troops from Epirus. Diplomatic Relations Czernin stresses to Sixtus and Xavier that any negotiations must be held in strictest secrecy to prevent Germany from discovering that Austria is pursuing a separate peace. Karl gives Sixtus a letter detailing peace terms. United States Navy Secretary Josephus Daniels meets with shipbuilders and places orders for 24 destroyers. March 24, 1918 Western Front 3rd Army’s 5th Corps, at the junction with 5th Army, has held fast, but in the early morning realizes that withdrawal is inevitable and abandons Flesquieres. A full-scale British retreat is in progress. The Germans are held in desperate fighting at Bapaume. They cross the Somme between Peronne and Ham, taking Nesle. Further south, they take Guiscard and Chauny. By evening, Hutier’s troops have advanced 17 miles from their start line, Below’s troops have pushed up to 15. Troops on both sides are approaching exhaustion, but there is no let-up. Deeply concerned, Petain goes in search of Haig and expresses pessimism over the possibility of rescuing Gough’s 5th Army and about the prospect of his own forces being attacked in the Champagne sector, convincing Haig that he can expect no help from the French commander as he intends, if the Germans advance further, to fall back south to protect Paris, uncovering the British right. The two agree upon the Somme River as the new dividing line between their armies. Haig then wires a message to London requesting that War Minister Lord Milner and chief of staff Sir Henry Wilson be sent to the front to confer with him and asking for “Foch or some other French general who will fight” to be given supreme command. Lloyd George’s concern has already prompted him to send Milner, who having missed Haig during the day, motors on to Versailles to confer with Sir Henry Rawlinson, Britain’s representative on the Supreme War Council. The Paris gun resumes shelling. 22 shells fall on the city and its suburbs. War in the Air Although the Germans have massed their largest concentration of aircraft yet for the offensive, the Allies are able to bring in enough to swamp them. The Germans have already lost air superiority over the battle. British bombers hit Mannheim and Cologne. Finland The Red Guards’ retreat is cut off south of Tampere and the siege of the city itself begins. It is already the largest battle in Scandinavian history to date. Palestine British columns move toward Es Salt. March 24, 1919 Hungary Fighting breaks out between Hungarian and Rumanian troops along the Dniestr. Hungary declares war against Czechoslovakia and begins incursions over the Slovak border.

March 25th, 2012, 11:11 AM	#79
Ennath Vintage Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 6,813 Thanks: 26,898 Thanked 80,767 Times in 6,812 Posts	March 25, 1915 Eastern Front A Russian attack in the Carpathians takes 5700 more prisoners. March 25, 1916 Russia At the urging of his wife, Tsar Nicholas II dismisses his Minister of War, General A. A. Polivanov, an opponent of Rasputin. Polivanov has been responsible for greatly improving the systems of training and supplying the army. He is replaced by General D. S. Shuvaev. The new minister is 62 and apparently unable to follow reports. The ouster of Polivanov is seen by the western allies as a serious blow to the Russian war effort. Eastern Front There are minor Russian gains in the Jacobstadt region. French Command Rocques becomes Minister of War. After a week’s interregnum, Augustin Gerard replaces him at 1st Army. March 25, 1917 Russian Command General Alexeev is named Commander in Chief with Anton Denikin as Chief of Staff. Grand Duke Nicholas retires to his estate in the Crimea. He eventually emigrates to France, where he dies in 1926. Russia The new government accepts all the responsibilities of the previous regime. All decorations (except the Order of St. George) are abolished. To ensure a supply of grain, the government declares the grain trade a government monopoly and mandates that grains be sold only to representatives of the government at prices fixed by the government, thus exacerbating discontent among the peasants, who already were disgruntled by their inability to appropriate the lands of their landlords. Eastern Front A German attack in the Dvinsk sector is repulsed. Morocco French troops take Ouijan from nationalist rebels. Diplomatic Relations The U.S. Legation at Brussels is removed to Le Havre. Its Belgian relief work is passed on to other neutrals. March 25, 1918 Western Front Sir Henry Wilson arrives at GHQ in Doullens. He listens indulgently to Haig, although he has little use for the commander or his ideas on the conduct of war. Bapaume falls in a night attack. The advance slows a bit, but continues. The Germans lack the means of rapidly exploiting a breakthrough; the entire army possesses only 35,000 trucks, running on iron wheels due to the shortage of rubber for tires, which quickly tear up the roads and are not suitable for transporting troops. There is also a shortage of horses, most of whom are undernourished and scarcely up to the task of hauling heavy guns long distances over bad terrain. The Paris gun fires 6 shells. It does some damage, but it is clearly not the war winner its expense would have justified. Palestine Es Salt falls. Rain and sleet slow the advance. Caucasus Turkish troops cross the prewar Turkish-Russian border. March 25, 1920 Ireland The first “Black and Tans” auxiliaries arrive to stiffen the security forces. They develop a reputation for brutality.