Things Noticeable this week

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by cicciobuki

Some questions arise...
If a soldier is ordered to perform a war crime, is he then a war criminal or is the officer who gave the order a war criminal? or are they both? (aren't soldiers allowed to disobey such order?)

Well, yes, but...

In Vietnam it would go like this:

"So, McCain, you won't bomb those targets? All right. I'm stripping you of your wings, and putting you in the Air Police. Oh, and we've got a bunch of wrecked aircraft right up near the front lines, you know, where all those crazy special forces guys are bivouacked. There might be some classified stuff up there that needs policing up, so I am attaching you to THEM. You can go out on patrol and stop by the crash sites as they come up. Lots of Viet Cong up there. Make sure you sign out a rifle and lots of ammo. Enjoy the rest of your Vietnam tour, PRIVATE McCain."

In Hollywood, conscientious objectors are heroes. In a real life war, they become cannon fodder.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by rotobott

I think he lost it towards the end

From his final statement

Wiki on his early POW days

Beginning in August 1968, McCain was subjected to a program of severe torture.[47] He was bound and beaten every two hours; this punishment occurred at the same time that he was suffering from heat and dysentery.[35][47] Further injuries brought McCain to "the point of suicide", but his preparations were interrupted by guards.

I think I would have traded those days for the worst days of my life.

Perhaps not though. Mr McCain had a very unusual and sometimes very difficult life. His point, I reckon, is that you need the bad times and the lows in order to develop your own character and learn about yourself. If he traded in those awful days, he would in the end have been a lesser person.

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

By the standard which you have just cited, every man who served in RAF Bomber Command in WW2 was a war criminal; or in the US Eighth Army Air Force bomber wings. So, incidentally, were the Luftwaffe bomber crews who attacked British cities. This is not sensible and not objective. The Luftwaffe air crews made a very serious attempt to kill my grandmother when they bombed Leeds General Infirmary in March 1941; she held a grudge, oh yes she did, but I do not. It was war, not spillikins.

How can you even compare the criminal invasion of Vietnam with WW2? You got it all wrong: the British and American pilots who bombed German cities during WW2 are not war criminals in my opinion. Germany turned half of Europe into a rubble heap and deserved its own fair share, however cruel that might sound. The war against Vietnam was an act of aggression. It did not pose any threat to the US nor did it ever declare war against it. The result are over one million dead. The US did there what Nazi Germany did against Poland, Belgium, France, the USSR etc.

Your grandmother was right to hold a grudge. She knew what it meant to have bombs raining on her, something that the Vietnamese people would experience later through the heroics of John McCain. After they burned the country the ground, the US never considered paying war reparations. There's not even an apology to this day.

You're totally right. War is not something you can discuss objectively by moralizing. But there is still right and wrong and the people who protested the war all over America were certainly aware that or do you think they were a bunch of fools? It was democracy in action. People who didn't want their country killing babies in some remote part of the world. This is basic decency.

As a senator in the US Congress Mr McCain will have been closely involved with the military-industrial complex but there is no illegality in chairing the Senate Armed Services Committee. It is a duty to the nation which some American citizen will have to continue now that Mr McCain has died. Every industrial nation in the world has an equivalent committee and an equivalent person.

A duty to the nation is what you call that? Okey-dokey. I guess he was serving the nation when he and four other senators (the "Keating Five") stopped the legimitate investigation of a fraudster who'd cost the American taxpayer $3.4 billion. This is the only kind of people your war hero was representing and even he even got re-elected after the scandal. If anything, I could admire him for pulling that off but I guess that says more about the American voters than Mr. McCain's ingenuity.

You call him a warmonger. I think otherwise; but I will of course consider anything specific you have to say in support of your opinion. Points I would make about Mr McCain are:

• He served in war and jolly nearly died. He knew the price and did not hide when the price was to be paid; unlike George W Bush [Texas Air National Guard FFS]; Bill Clinton [draft dodger]; Donald Trump [draft dodger]
• He spoke out against waterboarding, stress positions and other "enhanced coercive interrogation techniques" and "tools necessary to protect the American people", calling them by their right name, which is torture.
• He rose from his deathbed to vote down Donald Trump's miserable and contemptible attempt to deny healthcare to millions of low paid Americans. When he spoke to do so, he cited the fact that he was receiving cancer treatment and could not morally refuse it to other Americans. So what you say on this matter is very very unjust and wrong.

In the interests of fair play, I urge you to reconsider the things you have said against this man.

He's been calling for a war against Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya ever since 2001. He backed Clinton's interventions in Bosnia and later Serbia and Kosovo. Once the "Arab spring" broke out, McCain and Sen. Lindsey Graham quickly established contact with the jihadist "Syrian opposition" and called for the arming of the so-called Free Syrian Army and other "rebels", mainly Islamic terrorists. And, of course, there's Iran which should be wiped off the Earth according to neocons like him. He even joked about bombing it during some event in Las Vegas ten years ago or so.

I've already mentioned his support for the Ukrainian Nazi death squads during and after the US-backed coup in 2014. When those accusations of Russian meddling in US election arose, he called it an act of war. Really? And wasn't it McCain who told Trump to nuke North Korea or at least "consider it"?

If I say warmongering, you'll say that he's just exercising his duty to the nation. Oh, well. Let's put an end to this before things go out of control. I'd rather maintain some of the respect I've still got left for you. But don't patronize me again.

Originally Posted by cicciobuki

Some questions arise...
If a soldier is ordered to perform a war crime, is he then a war criminal or is the officer who gave the order a war criminal? or are they both? (aren't soldiers allowed to disobey such order?)

That depends on the concrete situation. I've just recently this documentary about the German Dieter Dengler who went to the US to become a pilot since Germany had no air force of its own after WW2. The film was made by Werner Herzog. Now Dieter Dengler served in Vietnam himself and was doing what McCain did and got shot down, becoming a POW himself. Was he a war criminal? I don't think so. Ever since he was a kid, his dream was to become a pilot and given all the circumstances in his life, the US Navy was the place where his dream could become true. He was then sent off to Vietnam and I don't think he could say no. Especially not as a foreigner and a German as that but also because he enlisted in the Navy and was bound to performing his duties. That country and that army gave him the chance to become a pilot.

But Dengler was just a soldier like thousands of other US soldiers. They're not war criminals per se but those who volunteered are certainly not heroes by any standards. It's one thing when you volunteer to fight the menace of a genocidal murder machine like Nazi Germany and another when you enlist to kill some poor peasants "for the thrill", deluding yourself into thinking that you're serving your nation.

John McCain came from a wealthy and influental family with a military tradition. Unlike someone like Dieter Dengler, he greatly profited from his hero narrative to pursue his political ambitions and material well-being. To people like that, there's nothing wrong in bombing a country to ashes and killing millions of people. If anything, you'd expect some modesty from a hero like that.

[Mal Hombre]

"The criminal invasion of Vietnam ?" I take it that You are referring to the invasion of the South by North Vietnam ?

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Brecht

If I say warmongering, you'll say that he's just exercising his duty to the nation. Oh, well. Let's put an end to this before things go out of control. I'd rather maintain some of the respect I've still got left for you. But don't patronize me again.

You should believe me when I say I have been extremely careful and measured in my posting, out of respect for you and respect for this forum. I certainly have not patronised you. I have simply put you on the spot to defend a very contentious statement, and I feel I have done it politely as I should do. I am sorry that you disagree; but I am not sorry that I did it.

That's all.

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

You should believe me when I say I have been extremely careful and measured in my posting, out of respect for you and respect for this forum. I certainly have not patronised you. I have simply put you on the spot to defend a very contentious statement, and I feel I have done it politely as I should do. I am sorry that you disagree; but I am not sorry that I did it.

That's all.

No problem and no hard feelings. It's all good.

[rotobott]

Just when the Afro-american felt safe

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45450558

[Nobody1]

Originally Posted by cicciobuki

Some questions arise...
If a soldier is ordered to perform a war crime, is he then a war criminal or is the officer who gave the order a war criminal? or are they both? (aren't soldiers allowed to disobey such order?)

Nuremberg had clear words on this topic.

Unfortunately, today's generation seems to differs greatly from the generation that announced its verdicts at that time. Some of their heroes should be hung right next to the Nazis.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by rotobott

Just when the Afro-american felt safe

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45450558

Hard to see how the dozy mare can explain let alone justify that shooting.

Unless being in your own home is now a criminal offence on Texas

I bet the Texas plods are now busy trying to dig up some shit, no matter how obscure, on him now to deflect the blame.

[Rogerbh]

The "Texas plods" are charging her with manslaughter.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/officer-k...141807127.html