The NFL and NBA thread

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

I guess it's true what they say - that things sent in an email can be misunderstood; so let's clear it up.

I also post on other sporting websites and I just want to say that you are not the only one who thinks players should get theirs. It was not directed ONLY at you...sorry if you understood it to be.

I know of no survey on what the reasons are for players bankruptcy.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...3364/index.htm

Here's the article I referenced and they say it is 78% in 2 years and 60% completely broke in 5 years.

What I was saying, is that if there was a survey that asked 2 simple questions to players who lost all their money;

1) I got injured and was no longer able to play
2) I wasted/lost my money

#2 would account for a goodly amount. (I wager 90%)

HENCE

When the following statement is made;

"I must get as much money as possible, as fast as possible, because I could get injured tomorrow and this money has to last the rest of my life"

It rings patently false in my ears.

(In Short: Don't tell me you can't play for $3 million, that you need $6 million, because the owners are making $30 million and that you need it for retirement...ESPECIALLY when it gets wasted!!)

The issue being that the players TURN TO THE MEDIA, to garner support from the fans...therein lies the rub.

PLAYERS

I am sorry, but I think that if the fans did not buy into this rabid "godification" of athletes, they wouldn't have such 'piss poor attitudes' as you put it. WE have changed the world. It is US, and it began with supporting the INDIVIDUAL over the team...the importance of winning, for the fans, has been supplanted with the lives of the player.

It's ironic as well, because you seem to focus on how important it is for these players, who are playing a game, to make money.

Not to win. Not to enjoy the game. Not to support the community. But to make money. Not for the fans. You then reference the owners, as a reason for this. Why are you worrying about what the 'other' guy is making...??? Why is it so important for you, that any athlete 'get paid'? I cannot understand how this is important for you? Isn't it more important for you, as a fan, that the Vikings win? (sorry...last time )

For the record;

I really don't watch basketball anymore, because of some of the reasons I just listed. I still, however, do have an opinion - which I choose to voice. As well, style has taken a precedence over substance. Down 30 with 4 mins left - dunk and run down the court pounding your chest. Calling Mike Singletary!! Calling Mike Singletary!!

Why do I harp on this:

With so much of the world facing such hard times, with so many people having their lives put into tatters, many through no fault of their own...these athletes WHO ARE GIVEN A POT OF GOLD...simply waste it.

FINALLY

This is the offseason, right? No games in either league, right? We can't talk about that team who lost last year in the NFC Champ. game, because it's a touchy subject... EVEN THOUGH we feel your pain...

So - let us badmouth these guys, we'll get it out of our system and hopefully the games'll start soon.

C'MON MAN!!!!

BTW: We can start a 'real world' thread if you like and talk about societal issues...(illegitimate...not really the point - I don't care if you married or not. I think kids are just better balanced when raised by 2 people, a check does not solve all ills. You wanna take advantage of your stardom and hit a bunch of girls - great! Just be smart and wrap it up...that's all)

Alright, alright......you make very valid points. I guess we will never see eye to eye completely on this. I agree that it is US that have created this situation. WE continue to go to games, watch on TV and everything else that makes the machine run. I get that.

Yes I want my teams to win but I know full well that if they don't pay athletes their fair market value, they won't win because no players will want to come and play for them. That is reality.

As far as the Vikings go, I was joking about not bringing them up. I was trying to be funny. Like you said, it doesn't always transfer well. I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to my heartbreaking Purple. Just ask my Chicago and Wisconsin friends who call me after every tough loss. But I am not bitter. We can talk about them all you guys want and I will try not to let my weeping tears affect my ability to type.

I understand people being mad about salaries when times are tough for alot of people. I just don't see the same venom directed towards indulgent actors, musicians, CEO's who blow through their money just as quickly. Think Nic Cage regrets some of his decisions?

One last thing than I am bowing out of this topic, you have said a few times that this is just a game. Yes it is, for fans that are watching it. But for the professional athletes this is also their JOB. This is what they do to earn money. I know it's still a game but I guess maybe their attitude changes about the "game" side of it when they see the "business" side as well.

Like I said, no hard feelings and I respect your opinions and your passion. That is always good in my book.

[tabler]

Gentlemen, I'm enjoying this thread (even though I know bugger all about either sport, I must do some homework on these) I just wanted to say that its nice to see you respecting each others opinions.

Its far too easy in threads like this to resort to flaming, I'm sure that with guys like yourselves it would not come to that, but I'm just giving a little reminder.

Cheers guys,

tabs.

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Keefriff, I just have to say that I think most of the problems you're having with the thread are more my fault than qwerty's. For future reference, you can say anything you want to me. I'm thick skinned, so I don't think you could offend me if you wanted to.

I'm the guy who brought up child support issues in reference to a specific player. I didn't say it was a widespread issue or a microcosm of society. I think you wound up in a place that I didn't want to go with that one.

Also, the problem that we're having at this precise moment, is that both the NFL & NBA are out of season. It's baseball season right now & that's not a part of this thread. I respect your position if you would like to talk NFL training camp, but I myself have nothing to add to the upcoming NFL season until the preseason starts.

I think we would be doing ourselves a disservice to not delve into some of the deeper rooted issues involved in modern day sports. The talking heads do exactly that every day. We touched on passion yesterday & moved on to $ issues forcing players back to the games they once dominated, because they have mountains of debt & no other skills to fall back on. Tomorrow will be something else.

I stopped paying attention to the president thread, because I tried to bring some light hearted humor & a bit of satire to the discourse. After a while, I found myself putting up posts that were heavy on the serious side & I wanted no part of it. This is sports. It's easier for us to all get along when speaking about these topics. But, here I am getting serious again. Look, no smilies.....

No one is to "blame". There is nothing to blame anyone about. You guys can discuss whatever you choose to. I just have a difference of opnion about it and there is nothing you guys can say to sway me and there is nothing I can say to sway you. We will agree to disagree and we can leave it at that. I just don't want to come on here, and I'm sure you and Qwerty don't either, to defend our opinions until we are blue in the face. I LOVE sports. They are a chance for me to take a step away from the hassles of everyday life and enjoy the competition for what it is. I think you and Qwerty would agree. Sure, I hate alot of crap that athletes do on and off the field but I won't let that take away from my enjoyment of sports. For me, sports are a diversion from what I have to deal with everyday and I want to keep it that way.

Now with all that being said, I can talk NFL all year round. And since you're from Jersey, how are your Giants going to be? They laid a pretty big egg at the end of last year and I was surprised to see Coughlin come back as coach. I like him as a coach. I think he is a winner but I know he is very "old" school and it seemed at times last year that the players weren't responding to him. Any thoughts?

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by tabler

Gentlemen, I'm enjoying this thread (even though I know bugger all about either sport, I must do some homework on these) I just wanted to say that its nice to see you respecting each others opinions.

Its far too easy in threads like this to resort to flaming, I'm sure that with guys like yourselves it would not come to that, but I'm just giving a little reminder.

Cheers guys,

tabs.

Hey Buddy!

Butt out!! Go Away!! Leave us alone!!! Who asked you to jump in??? What are you, a Geordi or something??? Eff-off, man...go play in traffic. Get a life. You suck!!!

(did I tell you I have a hard time with compliments...)

Thanks Tabs...and thanks for the title change. Do me a favour; if you have any questions about anything with the two sports...pls, send us questions. I'll be glad to answer 'em, as I am sure Grossnex and Keefriff would.

Q

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by keefriff

Alright, alright......you make very valid points. I guess we will never see eye to eye completely on this. I agree that it is US that have created this situation. WE continue to go to games, watch on TV and everything else that makes the machine run. I get that.

Yes I want my teams to win but I know full well that if they don't pay athletes their fair market value, they won't win because no players will want to come and play for them. That is reality.

As far as the Vikings go, I was joking about not bringing them up. I was trying to be funny. Like you said, it doesn't always transfer well. I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to my heartbreaking Purple. Just ask my Chicago and Wisconsin friends who call me after every tough loss. But I am not bitter. We can talk about them all you guys want and I will try not to let my weeping tears affect my ability to type.

I understand people being mad about salaries when times are tough for alot of people. I just don't see the same venom directed towards indulgent actors, musicians, CEO's who blow through their money just as quickly. Think Nic Cage regrets some of his decisions?

One last thing than I am bowing out of this topic, you have said a few times that this is just a game. Yes it is, for fans that are watching it. But for the professional athletes this is also their JOB. This is what they do to earn money. I know it's still a game but I guess maybe their attitude changes about the "game" side of it when they see the "business" side as well.

Like I said, no hard feelings and I respect your opinions and your passion. That is always good in my book.

ALRIGHT!! Glad we can talk Vikes, I like 'em.

Let me try to put things to you this way:

When hockey players pull on a Montreal Canadiens jersey, they are representing my city. They are representing all 24 titles that were won before them. Representing Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Ken Dryden and a host of other greats that made it what it is.

Most of all; they represent Montreal. You wouldn't believe how alive the city is, the deeper they go into the playoffs...the city is linked to the team. It is not just a job/business for us.

Movie stars/music stars/CEO's all are SELLING THINGS that we can refuse to buy. Don't like Tom Cruise...don't pay $10 to see his movie. Hate U2...don't buy their CD or go to their concert. Hate the CEO of GM? Fuck 'em, I'll but Ford or Chrysler!! (as if)

Sports is not just business...countries have gone to war over sports (any people from India or Pakistan here...cricket?)

These players should consider themselves PRIVILEGED and HONOURED to play and represent a team/city. Not entitled.

For me, it begins there...

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

ALRIGHT!! Glad we can talk Vikes, I like 'em.

Let me try to put things to you this way:

When hockey players pull on a Montreal Canadiens jersey, they are representing my city. They are representing all 24 titles that were won before them. Representing Maurice Richard, Jean Beliveau, Ken Dryden and a host of other greats that made it what it is.

Most of all; they represent Montreal. You wouldn't believe how alive the city is, the deeper they go into the playoffs...the city is linked to the team. It is not just a job/business for us.

Movie stars/music stars/CEO's all are SELLING THINGS that we can refuse to buy. Don't like Tom Cruise...don't pay $10 to see his movie. Hate U2...don't buy their CD or go to their concert. Hate the CEO of GM? Fuck 'em, I'll but Ford or Chrysler!! (as if)

Sports is not just business...countries have gone to war over sports (any people from India or Pakistan here...cricket?)

These players should consider themselves PRIVILEGED and HONOURED to play and represent a team/city. Not entitled.

For me, it begins there...

I said I would bow out but I can't help myself. That was an awesome way of telling me how you feel about it. That made it very clear what your stance is. I get that whole civic aspect of it. We certainly feel that here in the Twin Cities when our teams play well. Nothing better than that feeling. I love your passion about not only your team but your hometown and I feel that same pride for mine. That is always a good thing. I also understand having our athletes be proud and honored to play for our city, our fans and our franchises. I wish all athletes felt that way too. I also wish they weren't entitled and weren't as many jerks as there appears to be.

Now I will try and convey my opinion as clearly and concisely as you did above so that hopefully you can see where I am coming from. Not that you don't already.

Professional sports to me is an entertainment business. It always has been. Since the begining people were charged at the gate, baseball cards had tobacco advertising on them, ball parks quickly had advertising in them. It was a business that was undertook by the owners to earn profits. As time has passed, lots of teams have become civic institutions and people have deep affinity for them. Just ask Baltimore Colts fans. But still at their deepest core they are businesses. Just ask Baltimore Colts fans. It doesn't make it right but for me that is the essence of it. Fans, short for fanatics, have made the importance of sports so great and I think their passion at times is blinding. Myself included. We all want our teams to win for all the reasons you stated, but if I'm a 25 year old kid from Dallas playing for the Eagles after being released from three other teams, I don't know if I feel the same passion. He will play hard because he wants to keep his job. He will play hard because he wants to win. He will play hard for his teammates. He will play hard for his coaches. He will play hard for his own pride. I don't think he plays hard to make Eagles fans proud of him or for his deep love of Philly. To him it is certainly a business and I understand that.

Now let's talk about the Purple!

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by keefriff

Now with all that being said, I can talk NFL all year round. And since you're from Jersey, how are your Giants going to be? They laid a pretty big egg at the end of last year and I was surprised to see Coughlin come back as coach. I like him as a coach. I think he is a winner but I know he is very "old" school and it seemed at times last year that the players weren't responding to him. Any thoughts?

Wow, you just blew my mind with that 1. I didn't think anybody blamed Coughlin for the teams problems last year. The G-Men had their problems running the ball last year, but I thought the defense was terrible. Steve Spagnuolo was the most innovative defense coordinator in the NFL , in my opinion, and also the reason he's Head Coaching the Rams now. They tried to replace him last year with Bill Sheriden (linebacker coach from the SB team). This f@#%ing guy didn't see the need to be on the field calling the plays. He sat up in the box as an eye in the sky wirelessly calling down plays. It was a debacle. But, he was fired because the team didn't respect him at all. Now we have Perry Fewell (interim head coach in Buffalo) to run the defense. It can't be any worse than it was .

The story going into last year was how are the G-Men going to pass the ball without Plax. I thought Eli did a great job passing the ball all year. Steve Smith (USC guy not CAR guy) really stepped up & became Eli's #1 option last year. I'm confident with the offense going into this year.

If the defensive line can get back to it's dominating ways, I believe they have as good a chance as anybody in the division to win the NFC East. Philadelphia's not going to be very good at all. Washington will be better with Donovan McNabb, but I'm not really all that worried about them. Dallas is the only thing standing in the way.

What did you think about the controversy about Favre piling it on last year in the playoff game with the Vikes & Dallas? I thought it was the greatest thing in the world. But, then again I hate the Cowboys .

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

Hey Buddy!

Butt out!! Go Away!! Leave us alone!!! Who asked you to jump in??? What are you, a Geordi or something??? Eff-off, man...go play in traffic. Get a life. You suck!!!

(did I tell you I have a hard time with compliments...)

Thanks Tabs...and thanks for the title change. Do me a favour; if you have any questions about anything with the two sports...pls, send us questions. I'll be glad to answer 'em, as I am sure Grossnex and Keefriff would.

Q

With a mouth like that Qwerty, you would have no problem surviving NYC .
But, you better be careful my brother. I hear tabler keeps flying steel balls with spikes in his back pocket .

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Wow, you just blew my mind with that 1. I didn't think anybody blamed Coughlin for the teams problems last year. The G-Men had their problems running the ball last year, but I thought the defense was terrible. Steve Spagnuolo was the most innovative defense coordinator in the NFL , in my opinion, and also the reason he's Head Coaching the Rams now. They tried to replace him last year with Bill Sheriden (linebacker coach from the SB team). This f@#%ing guy didn't see the need to be on the field calling the plays. He sat up in the box as an eye in the sky wirelessly calling down plays. It was a debacle. But, he was fired because the team didn't respect him at all. Now we have Perry Fewell (interim head coach in Buffalo) to run the defense. It can't be any worse than it was .

The story going into last year was how are the G-Men going to pass the ball without Plax. I thought Eli did a great job passing the ball all year. Steve Smith (USC guy not CAR guy) really stepped up & became Eli's #1 option last year. I'm confident with the offense going into this year.

If the defensive line can get back to it's dominating ways, I believe they have as good a chance as anybody in the division to win the NFC East. Philadelphia's not going to be very good at all. Washington will be better with Donovan McNabb, but I'm not really all that worried about them. Dallas is the only thing standing in the way.

What did you think about the controversy about Favre piling it on last year in the playoff game with the Vikes & Dallas? I thought it was the greatest thing in the world. But, then again I hate the Cowboys .

I agree 100% with your analysis of the G-Men. They took a big drop off in their running game and their defensive was very suspect. I'm sure losing Spagnola had alot to do with that. Perry Fewell is a good coach and will make a difference. I didn't mean to imply that Coughlin was to blame or should have been fired, I thought he was going to retire. It looked to me at times last season, that he was very frustrated and was losing his team emotionally. The whole team just didn't have their usual fire last year and I thought he looked kind of exasperated with the whole thing. I like the G-Men and I hope they come back strong this year.

As far as Favre and last year against the Cowgirls, I have no problem with what the Vikes did. I don't think it was running it up at all. If I recall correctly, Dallas called a TO after the previous play in an effort to conserve time. To me that means they think they could still win the game. Therefore the Vikes can still try and score. If the game is still on, then the game is still on. I also think that when any team complains about getting run up on, then they are blaming the wrong problem. Stop them!!! That's a good solution. I think it was Keith Brooking the LB who made the biggest stink. Hey Keith, where were you when the Purple were kicking your tails for the first 3 3/4 quarters? Ridiculous sore loser talk. And God didn't it feel good coming from the Cowboys!

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by keefriff

I agree 100% with your analysis of the G-Men. They took a big drop off in their running game and their defensive was very suspect. I'm sure losing Spagnola had alot to do with that. Perry Fewell is a good coach and will make a difference. I didn't mean to imply that Coughlin was to blame or should have been fired, I thought he was going to retire. It looked to me at times last season, that he was very frustrated and was losing his team emotionally. The whole team just didn't have their usual fire last year and I thought he looked kind of exasperated with the whole thing. I like the G-Men and I hope they come back strong this year.

As far as Favre and last year against the Cowgirls, I have no problem with what the Vikes did. I don't think it was running it up at all. If I recall correctly, Dallas called a TO after the previous play in an effort to conserve time. To me that means they think they could still win the game. Therefore the Vikes can still try and score. If the game is still on, then the game is still on. I also think that when any team complains about getting run up on, then they are blaming the wrong problem. Stop them!!! That's a good solution. I think it was Keith Brooking the LB who made the biggest stink. Hey Keith, where were you when the Purple were kicking your tails for the first 3 3/4 quarters? Ridiculous sore loser talk. And God didn't it feel good coming from the Cowboys!

I'll have to take you at your word on Fewell. I don't know much about him. Good to know you like the G-Men my brother. We've had some big games back & forth between our teams in the last 10 years. I would've understood if there was some lingering resentment, but you've probably got you hate hands full with Chicago & Green Bay. How did it feel getting Favre? Was it weird for you after all those years hoping he would fail? I'm trying to think of what it would be like if I had Tony Romo running my offense...OK, now I'm not anymore. And I never will again .

I have to agree on your take in the playoff game. We just got done seeing what a team looks like when they run up the score the year before with the Patriots. They didn't even try to hide it. They would be up by 4 TDs with 2 minutes left & Brady would be bombing the ball all over the place. That's how players get hurt. If I were coaching that team, I wouldn't have any of my regulars on the field at that point in a game. Not if I'm trying to win the whole thing.

Dallas had nothing to complain about at all. Not when they play dirty. Flozell Adams rode Justin Tuck to the ground in the 1st game of the season. Tuck wound up separating his shoulder & wasn't anything like the monster he was the year before. As far as I'm concerned, you can't cry foul if you're known to commit them yourself. Adams was fined by the league for that 1.