Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[bacchus61]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

In the "real world" these folk without documentation still get treated for free if they show up at an NHS hospital with bruised bollocks or a fractured ovary or a bun in the oven etc etc

If you arrived in France with bruised bollocks and a bun in the oven you would be required to provide relevant paperwork to ensure you were entitled to treatment. Is it a fault of the person or the system that means that these checks are not carried out?
Personally I like the fact that we treat the needy without question, the point is can we afford to?
In other EU states treatment is not a given right. So the issue is not with the EU, it is with the UK.

[chupachups]

Originally Posted by bacchus61

But it seems again that this whole debate focuses on immigration, bloody Johnny Foreigner. Cannot we just enjoy the diversity they bring, I like being able to buy Kabanos from my local supermarket

it is pointless debating with you

you always go back to the same dogma...you think everyone that votes brexit is a racist...you just can't seem to overcome that in yourself to be able to actually understand the other person's point

you really belong in the EU, like junckers, you ignore the message, choosing only to listen to what you want to hear

[chupachups]

Originally Posted by bacchus61

If you arrived in France with bruised bollocks and a bun in the oven you would be required to provide relevant paperwork to ensure you were entitled to treatment. Is it a fault of the person or the system that means that these checks are not carried out?
Personally I like the fact that we treat the needy without question, the point is can we afford to?
In other EU states treatment is not a given right. So the issue is not with the EU, it is with the UK.

you are contradicting yourself

you previously implied that health care in the EU was free, so why would migrants come to the UK for our healthcare ?...now you are saying french healthcare is not free...please make up your mind when making up your facts, it gives the rest of us a chance to challenge your made up facts without you later twisting and turning like a twisty turny thing

Originally Posted by bacchus61

Firstly I would like to propose that both France and Germany have better healthcare than the UK, and also better social policy. Why would someone travel from eastern Europe to get our NHS when if they register in France then they would get better healthcare. As a resident of France then you automatically qualify for their healthcare

[chupachups]

Originally Posted by ********

A 7% improvement isn't good? Look, Greece faked its way into the EU, and similar to Spain even though it suffered during the financial crisis there is still widespread support for the EU there. They understand that they would be even worse off on their own.



Sure, just check any of the usual job sites for positions in the EU. For engineering jobs (electronic/software) for example, typical salaries for senior roles are in the €65-70k range. Cost of living is also lower in many of those counties too, because they have things like rent controls. Anyway, that's around £57k at the bottom end.

In comparison, similar roles in the UK typically pay around £40k. If you are willing to live in a shoe box in London you might get £50k, but of course your quality of life will be much lower.



http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

Have a look at both the in and out campaign leaflets, they both talk at length about the direction that the EU is headed in. Also search YouTube for clips of politicians talking on TV about this issue.

The Wikipedia article on the 1975 vote is good too. It talks about how many newspapers of the day raised this concern.

how can you downright lie on this thread ?

a reduction of unemployment from 28% to 21% is spun by you as a major success ?


a simple search on a UK job site has found several non london based jobs on £70k-ish

https://www.jobserve.com/gb/en/JobSe...97AAA5FEF16131

london ones are £85k-ish

https://www.jobserve.com/gb/en/JobSe...97AAA5FEF16131

even before converting £ to euro, that blows your theory out of the water of EU salaries being 20-30% higher

apart from the fact the europeans are flooding into the country, why bother when they can get paid more at home...doesn't make sense does it ? occam's razor...you're telling porkies

as for lower rent and cost of living...another downright lie...check airbnb...rome is more expensive than london...I know I am paying...check the internet for references to cost of living...the UK is cheaper than most...but of course you knew that didn't you, why else would you need extra justification if purely on salaries you were correct ?

the link you provided indicating it shows the political union agenda in the referendum of the 70s, shows no such thing, I checked

I suppose you think people are just dumb enough to swallow your rubbish without checking...its really really sad that you take this approach, I will not waste my time in future with your posts

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by ********

Pregnancy is an urgent condition.

Urgent? Not until 40 weeks have elapsed .

[bacchus61]

Originally Posted by chupachups

it is pointless debating with you

you always go back to the same dogma...you think everyone that votes brexit is a racist...you just can't seem to overcome that in yourself to be able to actually understand the other person's point

you really belong in the EU, like junckers, you ignore the message, choosing only to listen to what you want to hear

So far no one has come up with anything other than immigration/control of our boarders as a reason to leave Europe.
So ignoring immigration, what are the benefits?

[bacchus61]

Originally Posted by chupachups

you are contradicting yourself

you previously implied that health care in the EU was free, so why would migrants come to the UK for our healthcare ?...now you are saying french healthcare is not free...please make up your mind when making up your facts, it gives the rest of us a chance to challenge your made up facts without you later twisting and turning like a twisty turny thing

Without resorting to name calling or personal swipes I can assure you that France, for one, offers 'free' healthcare. To benefit fully from this you have to be a resident and to be registered to pay French taxes. I also know that if you are registered but due to your financial situation, i.e. living on benefits, you still get their healthcare. In the situation of emergency help, they provide, no questions asked, my brother was treated exceptionally well when he was bitten by a snake.
If that is the system of control to health services in European countries and not here, then surely we need to adopt these practices. If health-tourists leapfrog (no pun intended) other countries to get here because our controls are poor then that is a fault of our system, surely, rather than the EU.

[haroldeye]

Originally Posted by bacchus61

OK I can only speak from my experience. I have employed Polish, Ukrainian, Slovakian, Czech, Philippine plus many others. I do not care for their country of origin just how willing they are able to due the job required. To say that these economic migrants are bad for this country is wrong, for me at least. They have always been more willing and able to do the work I needed them to do. I will never discriminated against someone who is different in their creed, culture, beliefs, colour or origins. If they somehow cheat the system is it their fault or a problem with the system?
But it seems again that this whole debate focuses on immigration, bloody Johnny Foreigner. Cannot we just enjoy the diversity they bring, I like being able to buy Kabanos from my local supermarket

Speaking as the son of a German/Pole who came here in 1946 I quite like the diversity that controlled immigration brings. My beef against the EU is that it is an undemocratic, costly, inefficient, self serving bureaucracy created by and for a small group of people who believe that the wishes of the people do not matter and that their bright idea is the only thing in the universe that is of any value. The are prepared to lie and cheat in order to save their little project. As to trade barriers the less of them the better. This is called Free Trade and is a principle that the British have held for the past 200 years.

I was a reluctant Brexiteer, I feel and am European, but the actions of the various Presidents/Commissioners both before and after the vote have confirmed that I voted correctly. A pox on this Unholy Roman Empire and it's corrupt and arrogant heirarchy.

[chupachups]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Speaking as the son of a German/Pole who came here in 1946 I quite like the diversity that controlled immigration brings. My beef against the EU is that it is an undemocratic, costly, inefficient, self serving bureaucracy created by and for a small group of people who believe that the wishes of the people do not matter and that their bright idea is the only thing in the universe that is of any value. The are prepared to lie and cheat in order to save their little project. As to trade barriers the less of them the better. This is called Free Trade and is a principle that the British have held for the past 200 years.

I was a reluctant Brexiteer, I feel and am European, but the actions of the various Presidents/Commissioners both before and after the vote have confirmed that I voted correctly. A pox on this Unholy Roman Empire and it's corrupt and arrogant heirarchy.

my sentiments exactly, and I suspect the sentiments of most brexiteers...it would be strange for me to be anything else, considering I am living the free market dream at the moment, but I am not a burden on my host countries and almost certainly would have no problems being granted a work permit in the EU after brexit

for what its worth, I too am from an immigrant family...so between the two of us, the remoaners racism card is pretty much torn up...thats on top of the fact that one of my closest friends is polish and immigrated to this country as a result of the EU open borders...but he is part of the good immigration, being highly skilled and an expert in his field

[bacchus61]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Speaking as the son of a German/Pole who came here in 1946 I quite like the diversity that controlled immigration brings. My beef against the EU is that it is an undemocratic, costly, inefficient, self serving bureaucracy created by and for a small group of people who believe that the wishes of the people do not matter and that their bright idea is the only thing in the universe that is of any value. The are prepared to lie and cheat in order to save their little project. As to trade barriers the less of them the better. This is called Free Trade and is a principle that the British have held for the past 200 years.

I was a reluctant Brexiteer, I feel and am European, but the actions of the various Presidents/Commissioners both before and after the vote have confirmed that I voted correctly. A pox on this Unholy Roman Empire and it's corrupt and arrogant heirarchy.

Your parents came here just after the war and of German/Polish heritage, they must have found it very difficult. With years of war and hatred they must have found it difficult, anti-German feelings were running high. However, your parents manage to survive but they must have had to endure many years of racial hatred.
We have moved on dramatically since then. In my class at school we had children from many religious and geographic backgrounds, I did not know it at the time, it was only as I grew older I was made aware of their differences, at the time I thought they were just like me, a child nothing more. My parents were racist, describing people by their colour or ethnic background, and these views stayed with them until they died. They believed the Enoch Powell 'rivers of blood' speech thinking that the problems the UK was facing at the time was due to the high immigration from the West Indies, India, Pakistan and China. Do you not see the similarities.
The EU is undemocratic....
I agree
There are many parts of the EU that are undemocratic, and yes there are people, who for their own personal gain, exploit the system. One Nigel Farage has opted to keep his EU pension whilst being against the constitution, just slight hypocrisy there.
And look at our system. We have a head of state (God bless her) who is totally unelected. We have a judicial system run not by the elected but by those who are deemed the best for the job. Then we have the house of lords who, like the Queen, have the power to override elected Parliament. That said, yes it's not perfect but it seems to work okay.
I spoke to many people after the vote and after the repetition of many of the politician's referendum tag lines ('get control back', 'make Britain great again', etc.) but the phrase that invariably eventually came out was 'there are too many foreigners'. There was little distinction between a good immigrant and a bad immigrant, they were all tarred with the same brush.
We are now seeing the rise of right-wing movements in France, Germany and Italy, where the blame for their own countries problems falls at the feet of non-nationals. This makes me uncomfortable. We have DT in the US building a wall to keep the Mexicans out, banning Muslims from entering the country (blaming all of them for terrorism) and appealing as best he can to the white-supremacy movement. Surely we should break down walls rather than build them.
Yes I am guilty of simplifying the issues, there are no perfect solutions but I am deeply concerned that this whole issue has been taken over by those who want a greater racial divide. Integration rather than segregation surely?
If we currently blame those from Europe for our problems and we stop them from coming, who do we blame next with things are tough?