Weaponry; Discussion of Rights and Responsibilities - Page 31

crinolynne · February 2nd, 2018, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

Here is a video of cartel members off'ing Mexican police officers - probably AK 47s and M16s - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUiNC0A288A

Before you go blaming lax gun laws in the US for providing the weapons - https://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/co...-mexicos-guns/ - note that weapons the US lost in Vietnam are turning up south of the border and that much of the automatic weapons being used in Mexico came from their military or the various wars that have going on for decades south of the border. Hell, various Mexican military and police work for the cartels, that place has gone to crap. Have that country next to yours and see what it does to your crime rates.

No, I blame the gun manufacturers in the US who sell indiscrimentally a lethal product. I blame the drug manufacturers who promote and sell indiscriminatelly (I really can't spell that word). Let's be really blunt, it's US industry that promotes and fuels the violence. You can blame the criminals all you like but it's your own industry that makes their influence a thousand times worse. The blood, the misery, and carnage is yours and you are complicit.

**SanteeFats** · February 2nd, 2018, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crinolynne

No, I blame the gun manufacturers in the US who sell indiscrimentally a lethal product. I blame the drug manufacturers who promote and sell indiscriminatelly (I really can't spell that word). Let's be really blunt, it's US industry that promotes and fuels the violence. You can blame the criminals all you like but it's your own industry that makes their influence a thousand times worse. The blood, the misery, and carnage is yours and you are complicit.

I usually don't post about this issue anymore because, IMHO, if you are not in the US you can not really conceive our heritage. I will not try and give an explanation either. In response to your post though what do you think about the ten foreign countries who make guns and sell them in the US?
This a link to a Mother Hubbard artticle about it:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...nies-laws-nra/

**LadyLuck** · February 2nd, 2018, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crinolynne

No, I blame the gun manufacturers in the US who sell indiscriminately a lethal product.

I own one of those lethal products. It currently sits in my bedroom in the very same spot where I placed it several days ago. I will bet you all the money in my wallet that it will continue to sit in that same spot and won't move or harm a soul without human intervention.

**CARLTON BROWN** · February 2nd, 2018, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

I usually don't post about this issue anymore because, IMHO, if you are not in the US you can not really conceive our heritage. I will not try and give an explanation either. In response to your post though what do you think about the ten foreign countries who make guns and sell them in the US?
This a link to a Mother Hubbard artticle about it:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...nies-laws-nra/

I normally steer clear of this thread, but I'd just mention that most of the major foreign manufacturers of small arms like Glock, Sig Sauer, FN, H&K, Beretta, etc now manufacture most of their products sold in the US, in the US. Furthermore, there are a growing number of US companies producing superior quality copies of Russian rifles and the same applies to US made Russian calibre ammunition. It's just business really, whether you approve of it or not.

**cginok** · February 2nd, 2018, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

Here is a video of cartel members off'ing Mexican police officers - probably AK 47s and M16s - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUiNC0A288A

Before you go blaming lax gun laws in the US for providing the weapons - https://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/co...-mexicos-guns/ - note that weapons the US lost in Vietnam are turning up south of the border and that much of the automatic weapons being used in Mexico came from their military or the various wars that have going on for decades south of the border. Hell, various Mexican military and police work for the cartels, that place has gone to crap. Have that country next to yours and see what it does to your crime rates.

There is a documentary from a few years ago called "Cartel land." In that documentary, average run of the mill Mexican citizens decide to take on one of the drug cartels. They are shown using semi-automatic, and fully automatic, weapons. The nation of Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws on the planet, yet their citizens were able to obtain them. Point being, if people want them, they will get them, no matter how many laws you pass. Just as with prohibition, or illegal drugs, people want it, they get it, despite thousands of laws making it illegal to posses them.

**Rogerbh** · February 3rd, 2018, 05:34 AM

If your country was in our position, with many narco states south of the border, your addicts would be fueling the drug business. The reported murder rates in those countries although high is much lower than what it actually is because they don't find all the bodies.

The US lost the war on alcohol and is losing the war on drugs. In our geographic position, your countries would be losing too. I don't believe our gun laws have much of an effect on murder rates in the Narco trade. Just like I don't think we had much of an effect on the Rwandans hacking each other with machetes. Death came in those situations no matter what tools are used.

It is just a fact of life.

crinolynne · February 7th, 2018, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogerbh

I I don't believe our gun laws have much of an effect on murder rates in the Narco trade. Just like I don't think we had much of an effect on the Rwandans hacking each other with machetes. Death came in those situations no matter what tools are used.

It is just a fact of life.

Nothing to do with gun laws. It's got nothing to do with any stupid amendment. Nothing to do with understanding the US's oh so unique origins (I know fats believes that but he's so wrong). Got everything to do with simple economics and human nature.

But please don't get me started on the Belgians...

It's a fact indeed, but not of life.

**bubbs999** · February 16th, 2018, 07:13 AM

When the 2nd ammendment of the US constitution was written, the common firearm of the day was a muzzle loaded, black powder and ball smooth bore musket. It was around 5ft in length, weighed 10.5 lbs (unloaded), and would be hard pressed to hit a man sized target at 50 yards.

The 'framers', could never have imagined a self loading pistol with a 17rd magazine - or a semi-automatic rifle, weighing 8lb with a 30rd magazine, capable of firing 300rds within a minute, accurately up to 600 yards.

I know, had guns not been available, maybe this disturbed young man would have used a petrol bomb, or employed axe and machette to end so many innocent lives.

I know, the guns already exist (some 46 million of them in the US) - and you can't "put the genie back in the bottle".

Despite all this, the United States remains the only country, where these types of mass shootings occur, on school grounds, or large public places.

Despite law enforcement officers, and a large proportion of private citizens, being heavily armed - these shootings still take place, with alarming frequency. America is a country with proud tradditions of the "right to bear arms" - yet for all the commonly owned firearms in general circulation, the lives of school children could not be protected.

It is sad - it is tragic - it is a terrible waste of young lives - It is a stupid loss of future potential.

It is also a sad indictment of western civilsation, that had these childrens lives been lost in a school in Africa or the middle eastern region, that it would have been less hourly bulletin news, and more a footnote, lost deep within the printed news media.

These terrible events always raise more questions .... and provide few answers.

- - - Peace be with you all - - -

**bowlinggreen** · February 16th, 2018, 07:22 AM

Another school, another St. Valentine's Day massacre.

Apparently this kid showed a lot of signs of psychopathy - expelled from school, documented mental issues, police calls to his house, etc.

But no one wants to get involved, until they ARE involved, because their kid has been murdered at school by the town psycho.

People abrogate their personal responsibility and their responsibilities to their community far too often these days, I expect all this will continue until the politicians manage to convince the public they are all irresponsible babies and should not have access to firearms of any sort without "adult" supervision.

**Rogerbh** · February 16th, 2018, 07:24 AM

It is a cost of an armed society.

One that we (the US) seem willing to bear. Otherwise we would get rid of the 2nd Amendment. I don't see us doing that in my lifetime.

As to the mental case, he even posted on the internet that he was going to be a profession school shooter - http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/youtu...chool-53122707 signed by his own name and the FBI couldn't locate him - ?

February 16th, 2018, 07:13 AM	#308
bubbs999 Vintage Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Here, UK Posts: 1,965 Thanks: 15,647 Thanked 31,306 Times in 1,952 Posts	Right to bear arms When the 2nd ammendment of the US constitution was written, the common firearm of the day was a muzzle loaded, black powder and ball smooth bore musket. It was around 5ft in length, weighed 10.5 lbs (unloaded), and would be hard pressed to hit a man sized target at 50 yards. The 'framers', could never have imagined a self loading pistol with a 17rd magazine - or a semi-automatic rifle, weighing 8lb with a 30rd magazine, capable of firing 300rds within a minute, accurately up to 600 yards. I know, had guns not been available, maybe this disturbed young man would have used a petrol bomb, or employed axe and machette to end so many innocent lives. I know, the guns already exist (some 46 million of them in the US) - and you can't "put the genie back in the bottle". Despite all this, the United States remains the only country, where these types of mass shootings occur, on school grounds, or large public places. Despite law enforcement officers, and a large proportion of private citizens, being heavily armed - these shootings still take place, with alarming frequency. America is a country with proud tradditions of the "right to bear arms" - yet for all the commonly owned firearms in general circulation, the lives of school children could not be protected. It is sad - it is tragic - it is a terrible waste of young lives - It is a stupid loss of future potential. It is also a sad indictment of western civilsation, that had these childrens lives been lost in a school in Africa or the middle eastern region, that it would have been less hourly bulletin news, and more a footnote, lost deep within the printed news media. These terrible events always raise more questions .... and provide few answers. - - - Peace be with you all - - - __________________ "Here's looking at you kid"

February 16th, 2018, 07:22 AM	#309
bowlinggreen Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,192 Thanks: 48,676 Thanked 49,166 Times in 4,188 Posts	Another school, another St. Valentine's Day massacre. Apparently this kid showed a lot of signs of psychopathy - expelled from school, documented mental issues, police calls to his house, etc. But no one wants to get involved, until they ARE involved, because their kid has been murdered at school by the town psycho. People abrogate their personal responsibility and their responsibilities to their community far too often these days, I expect all this will continue until the politicians manage to convince the public they are all irresponsible babies and should not have access to firearms of any sort without "adult" supervision. __________________ So much porn, so little time...

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February 3rd, 2018, 05:34 AM	#306
Rogerbh Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Land of the free within reasonable limitations Posts: 10,889 Thanks: 50,476 Thanked 91,104 Times in 10,737 Posts	If your country was in our position, with many narco states south of the border, your addicts would be fueling the drug business. The reported murder rates in those countries although high is much lower than what it actually is because they don't find all the bodies. The US lost the war on alcohol and is losing the war on drugs. In our geographic position, your countries would be losing too. I don't believe our gun laws have much of an effect on murder rates in the Narco trade. Just like I don't think we had much of an effect on the Rwandans hacking each other with machetes. Death came in those situations no matter what tools are used. It is just a fact of life.

February 16th, 2018, 07:24 AM	#310
Rogerbh Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Land of the free within reasonable limitations Posts: 10,889 Thanks: 50,476 Thanked 91,104 Times in 10,737 Posts	It is a cost of an armed society. One that we (the US) seem willing to bear. Otherwise we would get rid of the 2nd Amendment. I don't see us doing that in my lifetime. As to the mental case, he even posted on the internet that he was going to be a profession school shooter - http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/youtu...chool-53122707 signed by his own name and the FBI couldn't locate him - ?