Charlottesville, Virginia [Ban The Klan?]

[vinceprince]

The descendants of Lee, Jackson and Davis want the Confederate statues to come down.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/16/us/robert-e-lees-grandson-comments-on-statue-removal/index.html

Jackson's descendant's say:
"We are writing to say that we understand justice very differently from our grandfather's grandfather, and we wish to make it clear his statue does not represent us"

"While we are not ashamed of our great great grandfather, we are ashamed to benefit from white supremacy while our black family and friends suffer. We are ashamed of the monument."

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I am still not at all persuaded that it is/was valid to remove the statue of General Lee at Charlottesville: just the reverse. The decision has certainly backfired very badly and created huge and totally avoidable trouble and IMHO no public good was served, no positive value has been affirmed. This whole story is a textbook example of what happens when people act without reflecting first.

Probably the civil council of Charlottsville had simply enough of the Neo-Nazi Marches and ultra right wingers in the middle of their town because of that symbol of General Lee.

If so, I can understand them; who has ever life experienced this, would easily understand it too.

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Many men fought in Germany's uniform in WW2 because their country was at war and they knew whose side they were on. They were not necessarily fighting for the regime or for its politics and values. Rommel was a good example; or Adolf Galland, or Hans Langsdorff, or Bernhard Rogge, skipper of the German raider Atlantis. If you were born German in 1910-1920, you had a choice to make. I am quite sure that in those circumstances I would have made the same decision and fought for my country, probably nothing like as well, but still the best I could. Germany was in the wrong, but that was not the fault of men like these, and they did what they very reasonably considered to be their duty.

[....].

Right, else you were in an incredible danger. Mostly one could not unfold to other comrades, because you could not know if this men was a convinced Nazi.

[Mal Hombre]

As far the Confederate cause,It was Robert E. Lee Who ended it,Not omly by the surrender at Appomattox but by His urging His men to go home and be good citizens.He,Himself swore allegiance to the United States thus encouraging His devoted men to do likewise.

[HugoHackenbush]

Let's cut to the chase, shall we?

Here is a link to the articles of secession for every State:

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/prima...eceding-states

Here is a particularly pungent quote from Mississippi's declaration:

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by HugoHackenbush

Let's cut to the chase, shall we?

Here is a link to the articles of secession for every State:

https://www.civilwar.org/learn/prima...eceding-states

Here is a particularly pungent quote from Mississippi's declaration:

"Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization."

You will find similar writings, for example in the CSA declaration of independence. In many ways the Civil War was fought to resolve unfinished business and did not really resolve it, or else the violence in Charlottesville would not be happening now. One English commentator wrote of Thomas Jefferson in 1776:

If there be an object truly ridiculous in nature, it is an American patriot, signing resolutions of independency with the one hand, and with the other brandishing a whip over his affrighted slaves.

This was the contradiction, the unfinished business. If all men are created equal and are endowed with certain inalienable rights, including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; how can there ever have been room for slavery? Outside the South and in the Free Soil states, this contradiction was slowly becoming insufferable and after the infamous Dredd Scott Supreme Court ruling in 1857 the Abolitionist movement reacted decisively. The political backlash against the extremely pro-slavery Copperhead Buchanan administration culminated in the first Republican Party election victory and the inauguration of President Lincoln. The clear-cut victory of abolitionists at the polls in turn triggered the secession of the CSA states, one by one, Tennessee last of all; they felt, probably correctly, that their long established economic and social way of life was going to be turned upside down, and they rebelled.

Here is where individuals were forced to make a choice. If you were an American citizen from a Southern state in 1860 you had to face conflict of loyalties. The South itself was divided inside itself; by no means all Southerners wanted to rebel. West Virginia successfully seceded from Virginia and rejoined the Union as a state in its own right. There was constant guerrilla fighting and insurrection in East Tennessee, where the local people were bitterly opposed to the decision of the state government and were firmly pro-Union. Parts of Alabama were staunchly pro-Union and, at the minimum, were full of passive resistance to the writ of the CSA. When General Sherman marched through Georgia, his personal escort was a regiment of cavalry recruited from men who left Tennessee and Alabama when war was declared in order to fight against their home state in the Union Army. Usually, such men had strong views against slavery and were prepared to risk being hanged when captured in battle in order to express those views.

But even if you agreed with the abolitionist position and opposed the "principle" so plainly stated in the Mississippi declaration, it would be a very big decision to turn against your own community and join the other side in the war. Even for abolitionists, that would be no easy choice. Robert E Lee set his own slaves free on his own volition, so his views on slavery cannot have been strongly in favour. But while Jenny very relevantly pointed out that 40% of Virginians in the US Army officer corps chose the Union, including General Winfield Scott, it follows from this that 60% of Virginians in the US Army officer corps chose Virginia; including Robert E Lee. Beyond a doubt, many of this 60% passionately wanted to maintain slavery and keep slaves and were fighting for slavery. But it is equally proven that many others had no interest in slavery or owning slaves and were fighting for another reason, and this included Robert E Lee.

[Mal Hombre]

No matter the precise reasons,His victory would have made slavery a fact of life for black people in the South indefinitely.The same applies to "Good" Germans in WW2,Their victory would have ensured that the Holocaust would have been complete.When You fight for an evil cause there are no reasons that absolve You of complicity.

[Roubignol]

We should remove all military statues.
They symbolize the decay of humanity.

[vinceprince]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

No matter the precise reasons,His victory would have made slavery a fact of life for black people in the South indefinitely.The same applies to "Good" Germans in WW2,Their victory would have ensured that the Holocaust would have been complete.When You fight for an evil cause there are no reasons that absolve You of complicity.

If Robert E Lee was 'good' then it makes his stance even worse IMO.
Though obviously abolishing slavery and avoiding needless slaughter was not exactly top of his list of priorities.

Such a person's action would have an influence on many others and he could have helped ended the war much earlier and prevented the slaughter and misery of thousands on both sides. Many of the ignorant and poor under his command may not have known any better, if he did that makes him far worse than them.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

No matter the precise reasons,His victory would have made slavery a fact of life for black people in the South indefinitely.The same applies to "Good" Germans in WW2,Their victory would have ensured that the Holocaust would have been complete.When You fight for an evil cause there are no reasons that absolve You of complicity.

Originally Posted by vinceprince

If Robert E Lee was 'good' then it makes his stance even worse IMO.
Though obviously abolishing slavery and avoiding needless slaughter was not exactly top of his list of priorities.

Such a person's action would have an influence on many others and he could have helped ended the war much earlier and prevented the slaughter and misery of thousands on both sides. Many of the ignorant and poor under his command may not have known any better, if he did that makes him far worse than them.

That's easy written with the mercy of a later birth !!!

Fact is, if we were in the situation of the forefathers, no one of us would know how we would have reacted in that times.

What is not valid or an excuse for those nowadays ultra right wingers, KKK, or simply those always yesterday's.

[scoundrel]

Why do we fight each other at all? Surely the answer must be that some questions cannot be settled peacefully however much we try. In 1860 America suffered a difference so irreconcilable that only war could decide the issue. Plenty of good men fought on both sides of the war and incidentally plenty of bad men fought for both sides too. Always nice to think it was white hats versus black hats of course, but a bit lazy IMHO.

Certainly, Robert E Lee fought on the wrong side and (isn't hindsight terrific) he should have fought for the Union. But he didn't see it that way and what is more, his alternative reasons for choosing to fight with the CSA were not at all dishonourable. Quite a few men on the Union side fought out of state loyalty as well. There is also the territorial instinct, which in politics tends to express itself as nationalism. When foreign soldiers march into your back yard and lord it over you, you are likely to resist. In 1861-1865 many people felt that way.

It seems to me that America has not come to terms with her past and is still re-fighting the Civil War, at least in terms of civil tension. One way to make sure this bickering continues is to refuse to consider the other point of view and to dismiss it. No one wants to listen because we already know all we need to know. It is not mature and it is not healthy in a democracy when minds are so closed.