LCS: Waste of Money? - Page 2

**bowlinggreen** · November 6th, 2018, 04:12 AM

The LCS looks like a cross between a destroyer and a PT boat.

No one really knows how a modern naval battle between advanced peer-to-peer states would play out, because one has never been fought.

A blizzard of many long range smart anti-ship missiles might be just the ticket for sending even the most advanced carrier group to a watery grave.

In which case, ideas about naval warfare and the projection of power on the high seas will be changed forever.

Could you see the US Navy going hat in hand to Congress and saying, "ummm, we need 300 billion dollars to replace all that stuff we just lost in that little fracas with China"?

That would be a tough sell, given that their replacement toys would likely just be sunk as well.

In that case, seagoing Technicals, smaller cheap fast ships loaded with missiles might become the king of the seas, along with subs. Because building more carriers would be tatamount to White Star Lines building another Titanic and sailing it to the North Pole to "teach those icebergs a lesson."

**Rogerbh** · November 6th, 2018, 05:02 AM

Was this class of warship the result of the Millennium challenge 2002 fiasco? General Van Riper (love that Dr. Strangelove type name) hosed the standard US military doctrine - partly with a fleet of small hard to detect boats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

If it was, they couldn't even get that right - not a hoard of small boats but 5 not so small boats - ?

**bowlinggreen** · November 6th, 2018, 08:28 AM

That was the exercise where a fictional Iran whupped the US Navy, right? And then they reran it with new parameters so the US Navy could "win"

Large numbers of anti-ship missiles fired from shore or small boats can pose a significant threat, even if the enemy belligerent has no capital ships.

I think the Chinese C-802 antiship missile costs about 400k to build. So you could field 100 of them for 40 million bucks, and 500 of them for 200 million.

So if China manipulated the US Navy close enough (say, by threatening to invade Taiwan and putting boats in the water), and then launched a big wave of decoys to deplete the Navy's magazines, and then followed up with a huge wave of hundreds of antiship missiles, you could send billions of dollars worth of carrier battle group to the bottom, and inflict a 50-100x factor of damage costwise, to say nothing of the thousands of lives that would be lost.

**cginok** · November 6th, 2018, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vo1v0d

Scoundrel you are right; Uncle Sam is not made of money because it is made of debt. The defence budget has somehow managed to misplace twenty trillion dollars over the last twenty years. Twenty followed by twelve zeros, which is coincidentally the exact sum of Americas entire national debt. For scale, the UK gross domestic income is just over two and a half trillion dollars. And a trillion dollars is about the same as the six largest countries in europe spend on providing free healthcare. We must seem weird to americans spending such a large amount of money on the health and welfare of our own population instead of killing foreigners

You're able to do that, as is most of the rest of Europe, because you have good ole Uncle Sam to bail your asses out should things go south. Only problem is, as you've alluded to, Uncle Sam is broke and isn't going to keep defending your asses forever. Then what are you going to do?

J J · March 30th, 2022, 09:29 AM

Just to wrap this one up.

It seems the LCS’s days are numbered already

https://news.usni.org/2022/03/29/all...1tAxIFgeCPM40Q

**deepsepia** · March 30th, 2022, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J J

Just to wrap this one up.

It seems the LCS’s days are numbered already

https://news.usni.org/2022/03/29/all...1tAxIFgeCPM40Q

The arc on this thread is somewhere between tragic and funny. People posting here ten years ago were skeptical of the design . . . seems like "Reclaimedwg" got it pretty much right in 2011.

Took the Feds a decade and billions of dollars to figure that one out.

Maybe stick "Reclaimedwg" on the Congressional Budget Office payroll and save the nation a few billion?

J J · March 31st, 2022, 08:02 PM

With the failed Zumwalt class destroyer as well, it seems as if USN procurement is as good as ours over here!

November 6th, 2018, 04:12 AM	#11
bowlinggreen Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,192 Thanks: 48,676 Thanked 49,166 Times in 4,188 Posts	The LCS looks like a cross between a destroyer and a PT boat. No one really knows how a modern naval battle between advanced peer-to-peer states would play out, because one has never been fought. A blizzard of many long range smart anti-ship missiles might be just the ticket for sending even the most advanced carrier group to a watery grave. In which case, ideas about naval warfare and the projection of power on the high seas will be changed forever. Could you see the US Navy going hat in hand to Congress and saying, "ummm, we need 300 billion dollars to replace all that stuff we just lost in that little fracas with China"? That would be a tough sell, given that their replacement toys would likely just be sunk as well. In that case, seagoing Technicals, smaller cheap fast ships loaded with missiles might become the king of the seas, along with subs. Because building more carriers would be tatamount to White Star Lines building another Titanic and sailing it to the North Pole to "teach those icebergs a lesson." __________________ So much porn, so little time...

November 6th, 2018, 08:28 AM	#13
bowlinggreen Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,192 Thanks: 48,676 Thanked 49,166 Times in 4,188 Posts	That was the exercise where a fictional Iran whupped the US Navy, right? And then they reran it with new parameters so the US Navy could "win" Large numbers of anti-ship missiles fired from shore or small boats can pose a significant threat, even if the enemy belligerent has no capital ships. I think the Chinese C-802 antiship missile costs about 400k to build. So you could field 100 of them for 40 million bucks, and 500 of them for 200 million. So if China manipulated the US Navy close enough (say, by threatening to invade Taiwan and putting boats in the water), and then launched a big wave of decoys to deplete the Navy's magazines, and then followed up with a huge wave of hundreds of antiship missiles, you could send billions of dollars worth of carrier battle group to the bottom, and inflict a 50-100x factor of damage costwise, to say nothing of the thousands of lives that would be lost. __________________ So much porn, so little time...

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November 6th, 2018, 05:02 AM	#12
Rogerbh Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Land of the free within reasonable limitations Posts: 10,900 Thanks: 50,520 Thanked 91,161 Times in 10,748 Posts	Was this class of warship the result of the Millennium challenge 2002 fiasco? General Van Riper (love that Dr. Strangelove type name) hosed the standard US military doctrine - partly with a fleet of small hard to detect boats. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 If it was, they couldn't even get that right - not a hoard of small boats but 5 not so small boats - ?

March 30th, 2022, 09:29 AM	#15
J J Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 237 Thanks: 3,688 Thanked 2,281 Times in 237 Posts	Just to wrap this one up. It seems the LCS’s days are numbered already https://news.usni.org/2022/03/29/all...1tAxIFgeCPM40Q

March 31st, 2022, 08:02 PM	#17
J J Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 237 Thanks: 3,688 Thanked 2,281 Times in 237 Posts	With the failed Zumwalt class destroyer as well, it seems as if USN procurement is as good as ours over here!