Militant Islamists

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

Well no legal return at least, hopefully.

If I were a naturalised American citizen you could legally revoke my citizenship, but if I am born of US parents and/or on US soil, that would make me a citizen by right of birth. You may not legally revoke anyone's birthright. As a pounishment, banishment went out when modern judicial systems came in.

What you can legally do is make your country much too hot to hold the unwanted person, so that they voluntarily flee. But this means smartening up your judicial system to expedite treason trials, and making the sentences have real fear-inspiring value, so that undesireable people will be anxious to stay away from retribution. You certainly need more of those no-touch torture prisons, the Supermax prisons, where the inmates are kept in solitary for life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence
No glamorous or heroic martyrdom in that; just a slow rotting to death, knowing that as far as the rest of humanity is concerned you are already dead.

[JerryFalwell]

If Islam is not the problem, why are Muslims in Niger rioting and burning churches over Charlie Hebdo?

[shagger]

Originally Posted by JerryFalwell

If Islam is not the problem, why are Muslims in Niger rioting and burning churches over Charlie Hebdo?

probably cos they're pissed off as what they see as provocation, but in the philippines, burma, china and spain, have seen mosques burned down by extremists.


although clearly criminal to burn places of religion.

[jokerman]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

People are very unhappy and unwilling to turn the other cheek just now. It isn't racist, though it may be distasteful, to feel and express ill will towards people who want to wage aggressive war against your society and your nation. It is racist if you extend that ill will in a blanket manner against all people from another community on the basis that many of the terrorists originate from that community. Older British members will remember the virulent anti-Irish sentiment which was widespread in the UK after the Guildford and Birmingham pub bombings. However, when I read that large riots have occurred in Pakistan as mobs of people take to the streets to denounce the cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed published by Charlie Hegbo after the murders, and I think about the total silence of these same people when a vile crime was perpetrated in the name of their religion, I do feel that it is time to speak plainly on these matters. Muslims are not exempt from simple and universal moral rules and may not hide behind their religion when taxed with the right of the rest of us to live peaceful lives without having to worry in case someone thinks we have offended the Prophet. There are quite a few Muslims who have shown that they do not believe Unbelievers have any such rights, and it appears to me that we do need to have this misunderstanding of the rules clarified and nailed down.

I live in Brum & the Pub bombings tore this city apart. And the scars are still yet to heal.
However in Brum we now have a large muslim community who do not condemn IS or Al-Qaeda. But they always play the race card when it comes to islam & anything that they perceive as islamophobic. There is also a sexual dimension to this because of allegations of kiddie fiddling by Pakistani men in this city.

It's a powder keg waiting to explode. And it's playing into the hands of extremists Both white & non white.

[SanteeFats]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

If I were a naturalised American citizen you could legally revoke my citizenship, but if I am born of US parents and/or on US soil, that would make me a citizen by right of birth. You may not legally revoke anyone's birthright. As a pounishment, banishment went out when modern judicial systems came in.

What you can legally do is make your country much too hot to hold the unwanted person, so that they voluntarily flee. But this means smartening up your judicial system to expedite treason trials, and making the sentences have real fear-inspiring value, so that undesireable people will be anxious to stay away from retribution. You certainly need more of those no-touch torture prisons, the Supermax prisons, where the inmates are kept in solitary for life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence
No glamorous or heroic martyrdom in that; just a slow rotting to death, knowing that as far as the rest of humanity is concerned you are already dead.

Scoundrel, WRONG, as far as the US is concerned. If there is certain criteria met it is possible for American citizens, by birth, to be disenfranchised. I do not know if terrorist activities or such qualify but I personally think they should.

[winebeavis]

Originally Posted by CARLTON BROWN

As a matter of interest, how do the moderators feel about satirical images of Mohammed/Islam being posted on VEF?

Late to the party and speaking solely for myself and not on behalf of any moderator (nor anybody else).

I'm atheist. I think you're born, you breath, the die, and that's it. There is nothing that follows. In the real world, I understand that not everyone feels the same. I'm okay with that. I respect that my Christian friends, my Jewish friends, and my Muslim friends all have different beliefs.

I don't think it's cool to go around insulting intentionally somebody's religion. At the same time, I get that some people get offended way too easily. I also get that sometimes others can antagonize. I see no reason to intentionally irritate the believers of any religion.

I can't say that I really like the idea of publishing cartoons mocking anybody's religion. At the same time, nobody deserves to die for doing so. In the real world, it's gonna happen. Don't like it, turn away. The world is not a nice place where everyone agrees with one another. I, speaking solely for myself, really don't care to see these cartoons. So, I'll look away. I'm not going to tell anybody not to post these hypothetical cartoons at VEF. But I'm not necessarily going to give my individual approval.

When the moderator hat is on, I have to check what I like and don't like at the door. My druthers are unimportant as a moderator. My tastes and approval are unimportant at that point.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by SanteeFats

Scoundrel, WRONG, as far as the US is concerned. If there is certain criteria met it is possible for American citizens, by birth, to be disenfranchised. I do not know if terrorist activities or such qualify but I personally think they should.

I am not sure what you mean by "disenfranchised", STF. There were of course whole generations of black American citizens who were denied the right to vote and a civil rights struggle was fought to overturn this injustice in the 1950s and 1960s. Once upon a time, the US Supreme Court ruled that a black person could never be a citizen of the United States (Dredd Scott v. Sandford 1857): but this was cancelled by legislation, the 13th Amendment. Today, there is international law, ratified by the United Nations on which America has a permanent seat on the Security Council, which says that it is illegal to render any person stateless. You take away American citizenship from any person born and raised in America and you are committing a crime under international law. Got to say it, STF: America sometimes acts as if international law doesn't apply to her, as if she is above international law, but it never ends well for America when she breaks international law.

Instead of ignoring and breaking international law, America would do better to use the law for her own ends. You can really hurt and devastate a person without touching them; the law is good at that.

[footstep]

Our president reacts yesterday after terrorists'support from some muslims over the world:here talk freedom is allowed,and it can't change.
Most of newspapers declare our country in war.
My question for english mates:usa paid yet hardly,and other countries,and so mine.If tomorrow,that should happen in London,what reaction would you have?
Great sunday to everyone!

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by NIN

Drifting back on topic
It Is continually disappointing that we do not see hoards of these moderate Islamics taking to the streets chanting "Not In The Name Of Our Religion"

Because they don't object.

The overwhelming sentiment in the Muslim community with respect to Charlie appears to be "they had it coming". This sentiment has been underlined, incredibly, by Turkey's Erdogan, who noted today

[t]hey will respect what is sacred to me," said Erdogan.

"If they do not, it means it is a provocation, which is punishable by laws.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...465336139.html

Sorry Tayyip, but not only do I not plan to respect your religion, I don't expect the laws to enforce your respect of mine.

I _do_ expect people who want to live in my country to respect our values, which place freedom of conscience and freedom of speech far above any other creed.

Erdogan's statement:

As Muslims, we've never taken part in terrorist massacres," Erdogan said. "Behind these lie racism, hate speech, and Islamophobia. French citizens carry out such a massacre, and Muslims pay the price. The West's hypocrisy is obvious.”

Great.

Do "moderate Muslims" demonstrate for free speech? Ever?

Nope.

They demonstrate on our streets to call for the death of blasphemers-- when we've long ago decided that blasphemy ain't a crime.

[pipeman500]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

If I were a naturalised American citizen you could legally revoke my citizenship, but if I am born of US parents and/or on US soil, that would make me a citizen by right of birth. You may not legally revoke anyone's birthright. As a pounishment, banishment went out when modern judicial systems came in.

What you can legally do is make your country much too hot to hold the unwanted person, so that they voluntarily flee. But this means smartening up your judicial system to expedite treason trials, and making the sentences have real fear-inspiring value, so that undesireable people will be anxious to stay away from retribution. You certainly need more of those no-touch torture prisons, the Supermax prisons, where the inmates are kept in solitary for life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence
No glamorous or heroic martyrdom in that; just a slow rotting to death, knowing that as far as the rest of humanity is concerned you are already dead.

I know some people that did Hitler, Idi Amin , Saudi does to I believe remove the citizens of it own who got it by birthright.

We go on about Muslims but the ones who preach hatred are Radical Islamists just like we have Neo Nazis who use religion and Zionists who use religion to preach murder and a society based on their own warped view of the world . If the people who believe we should deport Radical Islamist then shouldn't these other preachers of hate be deported not going to happen because they tend to be white.

Having worked with Muslims all almost of them are just like us they want to left alone to raise their families and live their life in peace and raise their families and some I've met on holidays of them I have had some real benders with.

I love the term Political Correctness invented by Right wing shock jocks to denigrate anything they disagree with funny thing is these people like radical Islamists have really thin skin and are easily offended . By the way I'm more of a left winger when it comes to politics but I'm definitely not politically correct.

When it comes to free speech it does come with strings attached I believe even the US Supreme Court said it "doesn't give you the right to stand up in a theatre and shout fire" with free speech comes responsibility most western democracies say you can't go out and murder people .