The Second World War.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

...Given the stuff he and his country had suffered, I would consider him reasonable and fair.

He was ruthless, scoundrel

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by palo5

Germany:

1. Good expertise / engineering

2. Good workers

3. Good infrastructure

4. Nudity everywhere

5. Makers of the world's best beers

Germany makes the world's best beers? They like to think they do. But they are shackled by the Reinheitsgebot which they pretend is "Purity Law" though it's nothing of the kind , it was merely to stop brewers pinching wheat etc from bakers.When it was only introduced into Germany in the 1900s it killed off lots of local beer styles.
What Germany does do is make a few beers exceptionally well though there's a lot of pretty average stuff down to simply poor.Reinheitsgebot doesn't guarantee quality , it simply states what can be used.And it doesn't have anything to say about the ingredient quality either.
Look at what's happened in Belgium which many beer lovers regard to be the top brewing nation.Look what's happening in the UK and more recently the US - not the mainstream rubbish but the newer smaller breweries which have sprung up in their thousands.These last two nations could also lay claim to brewing the world's best beer.Then there's the Czech Republic which is up there with Germany.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by knobby109

Germany makes the world's best beers? They like to think they do. But they are shackled by the Reinheitsgebot which they pretend is "Purity Law" though it's nothing of the kind , it was merely to stop brewers pinching wheat etc from bakers.When it was only introduced into Germany in the 1900s it killed off lots of local beer styles.
What it does do is make a few beers exceptionally well though there's a lot of pretty average stuff down to simply poor.Reinheitsgebot doesn't guarantee quality , it simply states what can be used.And it doesn't have anything to say about the ingredient quality either.
Look at what's happened in Belgium which many beer lovers regard to be the top brewing nation.Look what's happening in the UK and more recently the US - not the mainstream rubbish but the newer smaller breweries which have sprung up in their thousands.These last two nations could also lay claim to brewing the world's best beer.Then there's the Czech Republic which is up there with Germany.

What was German beer like in WW2, knobby? I know I started this little bit of fun but I won't allow it to take us totally off-topic. In Britain, beer and alcohol shortages were a serious problem in WW2, as spoofed by Compton Mackenzie in his novel Whiskey Galore based on the real incident of the SS Politician sinking close to the Hebridean island of Barra in 1941. In the USA, rationing gave rise to malt shortages and brewers were obliged to find alternatives to supplement their limited malt supply. The result turned out to be a new generation of lighter beers. Simultaneously, millions of women were doing heavy manual work in shipyards and factories and it turns out that a lady who had just done an eight hour shift rivetting steel plates with red-hot rivets in a shipyard also liked a glass of beer on the way home, but being a lady, tended to gravitate by choice towards a lighter beer; serendipity, in a way. This social trend affected future generations and for many years America has favoured lighter beers, though there are signs of a rennaissance of old-style beers there today.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

He was ruthless, scoundrel

I am more than happy to believe you 100%, Palo and especially since in the nature of things you will know far more about General Zhukov than I do. During the Cold War period, Russian modern history was rather a closed book to we who were on the opposed side, and there is still an awful lot that we don't know. However we did have some stray clues that General Zhukov might not be all sweetness and light. For example, General Zhukov on minefields:

If we come to a minefield, our infantry attacks exactly as it were not there.

Er...wow.

I can see how that would work pretty well, on more than one level. If you just ignore the minefield, then the minefield has not done its job and the enemy defences haven't worked as intended. Also, if I were a German soldier watching a huge tidal wave of Russian soldiers coming to get me, and these guys were so eager to get their hands on me that they would knowingly and deliberately charge across a minefield to do it, this would make a big, demoralising impression on me, no doubt about it. But clearly the man who would order his men, in cold blood, to advance straight to their objective and minefields-be-damned was not soft-hearted.

Maybe I should hate him; but I can't help admiring him in spite of myself. I really think Russia would have been badly hurt if she had lost him during WW2. In particular, he was one of the very few men who dared to talk straight back at Stalin and tell him to wake up and smell the coffee.

If you feel that the Chief of the General Staff talks only rubbish, my place is not here. Better to give me a command at the front where I can be of better use!

~Zhukov to Stalin: the precis of this would read "Put up or shut up." Now that took balls.

Marshal Timoshenko said of Zhukov:

Zhukov was the only person who feared no one. He was not afraid of Stalin.

This is really remarkable but Zhukov's track record bears it out. Whatever his faults, the man was both brave and smart, which is vitally necessary in a good general. If he ordered men to walk across minefields, I have no doubt that the man who would answer back to Stalin when Stalin was reprimanding him was brave enough (or mad enough) to walk across the same minefield if he thought that was appropriate. In many ways Zhukov was Patton, but with a hell of a lot more common sense and a shipload less vanity.

Incidentally, ruthlessness was a quality extremely hard to find in Britain's generals and this is one of the biggest faults, the biggest thing wrong with the British Army in the early years of WW2. American generals tended to be much more bloody-minded than ours and this was a virtue.

[squigg58]

I found myself slipping into Monty Python's "What have the Romans ever done for us?" territory when coming up with lists of positives for different countries, so as this is a WWII thread, I thought I'd better focus on some of the often-forgotten or easily-overlooked qualities, technologies etc. of the various belligerents. I'll kick things of with the Italian Fiat G.55.

In a list of the best fighter aircraft produced during WWII, few people would include the G.55. However, it was a superb aircraft, and more than a match for it's contemporaries.

Designed by Giuseppe Gabrielli (who went on to design the Fiat G.91 jet which served with NATO Air Forces for three decades) the G.55 made use of a licence-built Daimler-Benz DB 605A-1 liquid-cooled inverted V-12 engine. In December 1942, as part of a joint plan to standardise Axis aircraft production, a group of Luftwaffe pilots and technical personnel tested the G.55 against the Messerschmitt Bf 109G-4 and the Focke Wulf Fw 190A-5. The head of the evaluation team described the G.55 as "the best fighter in the Axis". No less a person than Kurt Tank (designer of the Fw 190) praised the G.55's qualities following a personal evaluation of the aircraft. As a result, the Luftwaffe acquired a number of G.55's with a view to the aircraft being modified for production in Germany. However, as the course of the war changed, plans were eventually shelved.

[Ennath]

July 22-September 9, 1929
ChinaAs a result of conflicting claims to ownership and control of the Chinese Eastern Railway, Soviet forces invade Manchuria, defeating the troops of the warlord Chang Hsueh-liang and forcing China to acknowledge that the USSR retains Imperial Russia’s share in the control of the line. Russian troops withdraw in January 1930.

July 22, 1938
Diplomatic Relations Chamberlain rejects a proposal from Nevile Henderson, ambassador in Berlin, for a four-power conference on Czechoslovakia by Britain, France, Germany and Russia. Chamberlain is not prepared to accept the Soviets as a diplomatic partner.

July 22, 1940
Britain, Planning The British government believes strongly that there will be uprisings against Hitler’s rule that will contribute to his overthrow. The Special Operations Executive is created to work clandestinely to encourage these developments. Headquartered on Baker Street, they acquire the nickname “Baker Street Irregulars”. Although events will not turn out quite as the British imagine, SOE will make a considerable contribution to the development of the various resistance movements in occupied Europe. This will be despite the lack of funds and equipment allowed the department by the three services. Officially, SOE is to be part of the Ministry for Economic Warfare. The later American OSS will be modeled partly on SOE.
Diplomatic Relations Britain replies to Hitler’s peace offer of the 19th. Foreign Secretary, Lord Halifax, replies, “We never wanted the war: certainly no one here wants the war to go on a day longer than is necessary. But we shall not stop fighting till freedom for ourselves and others is secure.” The response crushes hopes among the German people that peace is at hand and provokes anger at Britain.
French Somaliland The local military commander attempts to rally the colony to the Free French but the administration remains firmly pro-Vichy and he is relieved.
Sudan Haile Selassie arrives in Sudan to be ready for any Allied move into Ethiopia.

July 22, 1941
North Africa The British command creates the Special Air Service (SAS) for raids behind Axis lines.
Yugoslavia A Croatian political leader declares the goal of the Ustashe movement to be the extermination of “foreign elements”. “For minorities such as Serbs, Jews and Gypsies, we have three million bullets.”

July 22, 1942
North Africa Although the attacking British south of Ruweisat Ridge take heavy losses, including the decimation of 23rd Armored Brigade and 2nd New Zealand Brigade, Rommel decides that the drain on his strength in the past fourteen days has been too great to permit further attacks. Both sides now wish a pause to rest and regroup. The British are far better placed to receive reinforcements, being so close to their base in the Nile Delta. Malta, too, is recovering its strength to attack Axis communications. The Axis drive to Suez has been halted.
New Guinea The Japanese forces begin to advance along the Kokoda trail from Gona and Buna. A small Australian force prepares to defend the village of Kokoda itself.
Allied Planning Roosevelt agrees with the British that a Second Front in 1942 will not be possible and instructs his negotiators in London to agree on “another place for US troops to fight in 1942” and create some front that will quiet Stalin, who has been constantly clamoring for an Allied invasion. The plan to invade French North Africa, previously mooted, is adopted in talks over the next few days and code-named “Torch”.
War Crimes The extermination camp at Treblinka begins operation.

July 22, 1943
Sicily The Americans enter Palermo and have now cut off 50,000 Italian troops in the west of the island, but the mobile forces including most of the Germans are escaping to the northeast corner.
Eastern Front The Soviets begin limited attacks south of Lake Ladoga.
Aleutians There is a major bombardment of Kiska.
Solomons The seaplane carrier Nisshin is sunk by American aircraft near Bougainville.

July 22, 1944
Western Front German naval commandos destroy the Orne River bridges.
Italy Indian troops enter abandoned Citta di Castello. New Zealanders take Tavernelle. The South Africans take the summits of Monte Domini and Monte Fili.
Eastern Front Rokossovsky’s 1st Belorussian Front takes Chelm on the way to Lublin. The Brody pocket is effectively liquidated.
Marianas On Guam the marines from both beachheads launch converging attacks in an attempt to link up. Both advance for about a mile despite heavy resistance.
New Guinea Attempts to free the trapped Americans near Afua fail.
China The American “Dixie Mission” headed by John Stewart Service arrives in Yenan, the first direct US contact with the Chinese Communists. Service is a Communist agent who sends glowing reports about Mao to Washington.

July 23, 1944
Western Front General Crerar’s 1st Canadian Army becomes operational, joining Bradley’s 1st US and Dempsey’s 2nd British. The Vercors plateau falls to the Germans; SS troops commit many atrocities.
Italy Units of US VI Corps enter the outskirts of Pisa but are only able to take the districts south of the Arno.
Eastern Front The Soviets take Pskov – the last major town of the prewar USSR in German hands. Farther south, Soviet troops enter Lublin, beginning a street battle. Field Marshal Schoerner replaces Friessner at Army Group North. Friessner has made the mistake of suggesting to Hitler that his Army Group should be withdrawn.
Under heavy pressure, III SS Panzer Corps withdraws from Narva. Polish patriots rise against the Germans in Lvov, buoyed by the approach of the Red Army.
War Crimes The Germans begin accelerating evacuation of Auschwitz, yet deportation trains continue to be sent here.
Poland, Politics The formation of a Polish Committee of National Liberation is announced from Moscow. The London Polish government calls it “the creation of a handful of unknown communists.”
Marianas The marines extend the northern beachhead on Guam to Point Adelup. Other units from the southern beachhead cross the neck of the Orote Peninsula cutting off the main airfield on the island. Shore batteries sink an American destroyer.
New Guinea Contact with the Japanese on Noemfoor is reestablished near Inasi on the east coast.
China Chiang sends a message to Roosevelt confirming that he is prepared to accept Stilwell as commander of the Chinese forces. His conditions are that the Chinese Communists, before coming under Stilwell’s command, should first recognize the authority of the Nationalist government, that Stilwell’s responsibilities are clearly specified, and that his forces should have complete right to aid received under Lend-Lease.

July 22, 1945
The Philippines The first US troops from Europe arrive in theater to prepare for the invasion of Japan. Morale is low, the troops feeling that they have done their job and ought to be able to go home.
Borneo Seria, in North Borneo, is occupied by the Australians. The retreating Japanese have failed to destroy the airfield, which is put into immediate use.

July 22-23, 1945
Japan A force of nine US destroyers raids shipping at the mouth of Tokyo harbor itself. The Japanese lose a cargo ship sunk and three damaged. Two destroyers attempting to intervene are damaged and grounded in the last surface action of the war.

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

What was German beer like in WW2, knobby? I know I started this little bit of fun but I won't allow it to take us totally off-topic. In Britain, beer and alcohol shortages were a serious problem in WW2, as spoofed by Compton Mackenzie in his novel Whiskey Galore based on the real incident of the SS Politician sinking close to the Hebridean island of Barra in 1941. In the USA, rationing gave rise to malt shortages and brewers were obliged to find alternatives to supplement their limited malt supply. The result turned out to be a new generation of lighter beers. Simultaneously, millions of women were doing heavy manual work in shipyards and factories and it turns out that a lady who had just done an eight hour shift rivetting steel plates with red-hot rivets in a shipyard also liked a glass of beer on the way home, but being a lady, tended to gravitate by choice towards a lighter beer; serendipity, in a way. This social trend affected future generations and for many years America has favoured lighter beers, though there are signs of a rennaissance of old-style beers there today.

I understand that beer in Germany maintained its strength for a while but towards the end was pretty weak.Germany was well known to widely use "ersatz" materials at the time and perhaps brewing laws were suspended.
Googling "beer strength in germany war" found this link;
http://www.europeanbeerguide.net/warbeer.htm
Interestingly not only was German beer weaker than British later on in the war, the Germans brewed less than the UK as well.
By the way, the "gravity" column gives a good idea of the alcoholic strength.
Beer at gravity 1038 will be pretty spot on 3.8% ABV.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by knobby109

Germany makes the world's best beers?

Of course, it's a matter of taste. But fewer people seem disappointed with German beers than with others. It's tasty, appealing in appearance, and doesn't look murky brown like it's been strained through through a garbageman's socks . I'm a fan

But they are shackled by the Reinheitsgebot which they pretend is "Purity Law" though it's nothing of the kind , it was merely to stop brewers pinching wheat etc from bakers.When it was only introduced into Germany in the 1900s it killed off lots of local beer styles

Actually, I don't think they are. It used to be W. German law that you couldn't call anything "beer/Bier" unless it was prepared according to the Reinheitsgebot. But then there was a European court ruling sometime in the mid-80s (as far as I remember) that said the law was illegal

The Germans hated that, but changed their marketing to say "We still produce 'Reinheitsgebot Bier' ". So far as I can tell, German beer is still a success story. My own brother actually thought one of the worst Aldi-beers was a 'delicacy', and he lives in Australia!!

(Australian beer is acceptable too, of course)

[Ennath]

July 23, 1940
Allied War Production The British Purchasing Mission in the United States reaches agreement allowing it to buy up 40 percent of US aircraft production.
Czechoslovakia, Politics A provisional government is formed in London and is recognized by Britain. Eduard Benes is president.
Baltic States The new SSR’s nationalize all land, banks, and large businesses. Peasants receive only a small land allotment. Small businesses are seized later. Ethnic Russians are to be moved in to colonize the new republics. Thousands of opponents are soon arrested.

July 23, 1941
Eastern Front The heroic garrison of Brest-Litovsk, isolated since the start of the invasion, and ceaselessly hammered by German bombardment and attacks, is finally liquidated. Around Smolensk, Soviet 20th Army launches a counterattack, even though its flanks are unsecured.

July 23, 1942
New Guinea The advancing Japanese make contact with Australian defensive positions on the Kokoda Trail near Wosida. By the 27th, the Australians have been pushed back to Kokoda itself.
Eastern Front There is heavy fighting along the Don from Rostov to Tsimlyansk, especially around Novocherkassk. Russian losses here are particularly heavy. Weichs replaces Bock in command of Army Group B.
North Africa Fighting at El Alamein continues until the 27th.
War Crimes The extermination camp at Treblinka begins operations.
World Affairs In a broadcast, Secretary of State Hull urges the formation of an international peacekeeping organization by the United Nations after the war.

July 23, 1943
Sicily The Americans occupy Trapani and Marsala and on the north coast they reach Termini Imerese. Patton begin his drive east toward Messina. An unofficial “race” is shaping up between Patton and Montgomery, who loathe each other.
Eastern Front South of Kursk, the Germans are now back to their start lines. The advance on Orel continues.
East Africa Djibouti declares for the Free French.


July 23, 1944
Western Front General Crerar’s 1st Canadian Army becomes operational, joining Bradley’s 1st US and Dempsey’s 2nd British. The Vercors plateau falls to the Germans; SS troops commit many atrocities.
Italy Units of US VI Corps enter the outskirts of Pisa but are only able to take the districts south of the Arno.
Eastern Front The Soviets take Pskov – the last major town of the prewar USSR in German hands. Farther south, Soviet troops enter Lublin, beginning a street battle. Field Marshal Schoerner replaces Friessner at Army Group North. Friessner has made the mistake of suggesting to Hitler that his Army Group should be withdrawn.
Under heavy pressure, III SS Panzer Corps withdraws from Narva. Polish patriots rise against the Germans in Lvov, buoyed by the approach of the Red Army.
War Crimes The Germans begin accelerating evacuation of Auschwitz, yet deportation trains continue to be sent here.
Poland, Politics The formation of a Polish Committee of National Liberation is announced from Moscow. The London Polish government calls it “the creation of a handful of unknown communists.”
Marianas The marines extend the northern beachhead on Guam to Point Adelup. Other units from the southern beachhead cross the neck of the Orote Peninsula cutting off the main airfield on the island. Shore batteries sink an American destroyer.
New Guinea Contact with the Japanese on Noemfoor is reestablished near Inasi on the east coast.
China Chiang sends a message to Roosevelt confirming that he is prepared to accept Stilwell as commander of the Chinese forces. His conditions are that the Chinese Communists, before coming under Stilwell’s command, should first recognize the authority of the Nationalist government, that Stilwell’s responsibilities are clearly specified, and that his forces should have complete right to aid received under Lend-Lease.

July 23, 1945
France The trial of Marshal Petain begins.

[Ennath]

July 24, 1940
English Channel The steamer Meknes, carrying 1277 French sailors to Marseilles is sunk by the German torpedo boat S-27 off Portland. 383 are killed.
Rumania, Home Front The government nationalizes the Astra-Romana Oil Company, part of Royal Dutch Shell.
France, Home Front Red Cross representatives put the number of refugees in the Vichy zone at 5.5 million.
Mediterranean An Italian air raid on Jerusalem kills 50.

July 24, 1941
Japanese Policy The Japanese have presented an ultimatum to Vichy representatives on the 19th demanding bases in southern Indochina. This demand is now conceded. Japanese forces begin occupying the bases on the 28th. It is very clear that the main use for such bases would be in an invasion of Malaya, the Dutch East Indies, or the Philippines.
British Air Operations The Scharnhorst is hit five times by British bombers while lying in the port of La Pallice. Repairs will not be complete until 1942. Since Prinz Eugen has been hit earlier in the month and Gneisenau is under repair, this means that none of the German heavy ships in and around Brest is fit for operations in the near future.
Eastern Front Einsatzgruppen murder 4500 Jews at Lachowicze, Poland.

July 24, 1943
Italy, Politics The Fascist Grand Council meets for the first time since December 1939. The debate and voting go against Mussolini but it is not yet clear what is to happen next.
Sicily On the north coast, the Americans take Cefalu and inland other American units advance toward Nicosia.
The Pacific The submarine Tinosa experiences 11 duds from 12 torpedoes fired. It is clear that something is wrong with the contact exploder as well as the magnetic one.

July 24 – August 3, 1943
Allied Air Operations Hamburg is raided in the most effective attacks of the European war thus far. The RAF mounts major operations on four nights: July 24-25, July 27-28, July 29-30, and August 2-3. On the first three of these nights 780 bombers drop 2300 tons of bombs each night and on the fourth night 435 bombers drop 940 tons. The USAAF joins in on July 25 and 26 and the RAF sends small forces every other night. Altogether about 50,000 civilian deaths are caused and as many injuries. About 800,000 are made homeless. The attack of July 27-28 includes many incendiaries and a firestorm is raised for the first time. This occurs when the fires in a given area become so intense that they devour all the oxygen nearby and suck more into themselves, creating hurricane force winds which both feed the fires and move them along at great speed. The Allied bombers only raise firestorms on a handful of occasions during the war.
Tactically the raids are important for the RAF as they are the first time that “window” is used. This consists of strips of metal dropped from supporting aircraft which confuses the German radar system by giving false echoes. It is very successful at first but improved radar later nullifies some of its benefits. A token of Bomber Command’s growing strength is that it is able to mount major attacks on other targets even during this period.
This period also sees intensive operations by the US forces against other targets, including many German aircraft factories. The 8th Air Force loses 88 planes in these operations.

July 24, 1944
Western Front The breakout attack from Normandy is postponed due to bad weather.
Eastern Front Lublin falls to Rokossovsky’s troops. Other units of 1st Ukrainian Front overrun the site of Majdanek extermination camp. The Narva rearguards fight off a Soviet attempt to break through, taking up position a short ways back in the Tannenberg Line.
German Forces As a display of loyalty the German armed forces are required to replace the military salute with the Nazi salute.
Marianas V Amphibious Corps lands on Tinian. The force comprises 2nd and 4th Marine Divisions and numbers 16,000 men. Colonel Ogata and Admiral Kakuta command approximately 6200 Japanese on the island. The 2nd Marines are first involved in a feint landing in the southwest while the 4th Marines land in the northwest. The assault force establishes a solid beachhead and heavy Japanese attacks are beaten off with great loss. The battleship Colorado is hit by Japanese artillery. Napalm is used in these engagements for the first time in the Pacific.
New Guinea Another Japanese attempt to cross the Driniumor is repulsed. US units are still surrounded near Afua.

July 24, 1945
American Planning Truman takes the decision to use the bomb on Japan if they do not very soon come to terms. Whatever the later doubts about the morality of using the weapon, at the time there is very little doubt. It is simply a question of quickly persuading the Japanese to surrender in order to save the many lives on both sides that would be lost if the Allies invade the Home Islands. No real consideration is given to the possibility of a demonstration of the bomb to frighten the Japanese without having to destroy a city.
The Pacific The frigate USS Underhill is sunk north of Luzon by a Kaiten manned suicide torpedo.

July 24-26, 1945
Malaya British naval and air units attack Japanese troop concentrations and transport targets on the west coast. Kamikaze attacks damage the escort carrier Ameer.

July 24-30, 1945
Japan The Allied carriers continue their operations against the Japanese home islands. There are now 19 such ships. Many targets are hit.