The Military History Thread

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Obviously they learned the wrong lessons. The problem is not to defeat the 'Afghan army' - almost anyone in any age could do that. It's the irregulars that break you, and it's still the same today

When the German tribes under Hermann wiped out General Varus and his four Roman legions, the response of the Romans was to abandon their attempt to turn the area west of the Rhine into a German province; but over the next several years they mounted repeated invasions simply in order to kill people, burn villages and sow the fields with salt. I don't know if the British Army salted the Afghan fields (they would probably have used sodium chlorate rather than salt if they went to those lengths, since sodium chlorate was the Agent Orange of Victorian times); but what happened in 1842 after the Khyber Pass massacres was a punitive expedition in the Ancient Roman style. The British and the army of the East India Company went back to Afghanistan in huge force for the sole purpose of making the Afghans weep bitter tears that they had ever known them. They did not stay and did not try again to occupy the land.

The Afghans had murdered the civilians, even the babies, whereas with the soldiers it was arguably fair fight. Traditionally, the British won't harbour a personal grudge over fair fight between soldiers, but will never let up if a foreign enemy has massacred British women and children; not at least until they have paid it back at usurious rates of compound interest. I doubt if this marks us out from other countries too much. Human nature isn't vastly different anywhere you go.

[haroldeye]

One feature of the British was that they were pretty poor at exploiting success and they had a reputation for not being as ruthless as others. The French Army was shattered after Waterloo because it was the Prussians who gave chase and hounded and harried them.

British soldiers complained loudly when told to burn Boer farms in the Boer war. Native huts that took a day or so to build was one thing, but farms like British ones upset the troops.

Having said that the retribution given to the Indian Mutineers (who had slaughtered women and children with glee) was something to behold.

[Mal Hombre]

Our history in Ireland tends to argue against a lack of ruthlessness,Similarly there are plenty of people in South Africa who would say that We were quite ruthless enough there as well...

[haroldeye]

It's all comparative Mal.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

When the German tribes under Hermann wiped out General Varus and his four Roman legions, the response of the Romans was to abandon their attempt to turn the area west of the Rhine into a German province...

That's right. In fact, if you're ever in the Köln/Cologne area, you can still see old Roman forts that marked the limit of The Empire. There's also a Roman museum right next to the Cathedral - worth a visit

But I think of it as an area "East of the Rhine" and "North of Köln/Cologne". Unless dementia is hitting me again, I think they already had almost everything West of it. And wasn't it three legions? - the cavalry and baggage train could easily have had the numerical strength of an extra legion, maybe more, but I'm not sure they counted as one

[Mal Hombre]

It was three legions,Boudicca took out two,One more and the Romans might have pulled out of Britain...

[blueballsdc]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

That all changed after 1746 when the clans were forcibly disarmed. Your tenants were no longer your private army. They were now just a burden to you, sub-optimally occupying land which could carry sheep more profitably than it could carry people.

Quite a few of these "displaced" Scots ended up crossing the ocean to North America and a few became my ancestors. Their descendents were more than happy to join in the fight against the British some 30 years later.

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by blueballsdc

Quite a few of these "displaced" Scots ended up crossing the ocean to North America and a few became my ancestors. Their descendents were more than happy to join in the fight against the British some 30 years later.

And some ended up fighting for the king. The loyalist force beaten at Moore's Creek Bridge, North Carolina in February 1776 was largely composed of them.

[blueballsdc]

Originally Posted by Ennath

And some ended up fighting for the king.

Well, stupid is as stupid does.

Originally Posted by Ennath

The loyalist force beaten at Moore's Creek Bridge, North Carolina in February 1776 was largely composed of them.

Look at the Battle of King's Mountain. It was much the same thing. Patriot Militia fighting Loyalist Militia with the only "Brit" in the whole bunch was Major Ferguson commanding the Loyalists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kings_Mountain

Although since Ferguson died and the Loyalists lost I guess that would make him Scottish and not British.


And if any of you are in northern South Carolina or southern North Carolina, I would recommend a visit to the park. It is a beautiful place and doesn't get nearly the number of visitors it deserves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_M..._Military_Park

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

That's right. In fact, if you're ever in the Köln/Cologne area, you can still see old Roman forts that marked the limit of The Empire. There's also a Roman museum right next to the Cathedral - worth a visit

But I think of it as an area "East of the Rhine" and "North of Köln/Cologne". Unless dementia is hitting me again, I think they already had almost everything West of it. And wasn't it three legions? - the cavalry and baggage train could easily have had the numerical strength of an extra legion, maybe more, but I'm not sure they counted as one

Yes, I was in a hurry to get to work and I mis-typed. The brief campaign took place in the area now known as Lower Saxony, which of course is east of Rhineland-Westphalia and a long way away from the area of Varus's base camps. He lost 3 legions plus a considerable body of auxilliaries, cavalry and support troops; the lost legions were XVII, XVIII and XIX, and these were never formed again, their numbers forever missing from the lists after AD9, perhaps reflecting the sheer disgrace of this defeat.

Queen Boudica destroyed Legion IX, Ninth Hispana, but it was reformed, and lost again sometime in the Second Century AD, in circumstances which have never been properly explained. It may have been lost in Scotland or transferred to what is now Holland and lost there; it was off the rolls by the reign of Marcus Aurelius in the AD 160s. It was soldiers of the Ninth Legion who gang-raped Boudica's daughters in front of her, just to show her who was boss; unsurprisingly, she gave them special attention. Some accounts relate that she hung up their dead bodies for the crows to eat.