Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

it is about our right to govern ourselves, control our borders and be an independent nation...

Sounds great if you put it like that, but a remainer could say it's irrational and emotional. He could ask "what good is governing ourselves if the government is unrepresentative and undemocratic? Are we keeping out foreigners because we don't like them? And are we independent when in fact we follow the Americans like lapdogs, and have to comply with externally-made laws anyway?"

Would the rational side of you consider his questions, or would you reject them as unpatriotic?

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by Devius

[...]
Mr Blair also said he believed it was “absolutely necessary” that Brexit does not go ahead as he accused the Conservatives and Labour of offering the UK “two different visions of the 1960s”.[/i]

[...]

Our former chancellor Helmut Schmidt once said deadly serious, asked in an interview to his "visions" about Europe: I think those who are having "visions", should immediately visit a doctor !

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

Our former chancellor Helmut Schmidt once said deadly serious, asked in an interview to his "visions" about Europe: I think those who are having "visions", should immediately visit a doctor !

He was referring to German political opponents, but we know what he meant. He must have said it about 30-40 years ago

I didn't dislike him, but he was too "western" for my standpoint. No German needs gazillions of US military bases and A-Bombs right next to him -- Schmidt never figured out that Russians were more honest than the Americans, or couldn't admit it

We moved our troops back, and they moved theirs forward. Clear that Schmidt didn't comprehend the western deceit

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Sounds great if you put it like that, but a remainer could say it's irrational and emotional. He could ask "what good is governing ourselves if the government is unrepresentative and undemocratic? Are we keeping out foreigners because we don't like them? And are we independent when in fact we follow the Americans like lapdogs, and have to comply with externally-made laws anyway?"

Would the rational side of you consider his questions, or would you reject them as unpatriotic?

I resist the urge to fly a Union Jack from a flagpole in front of my flat or to play Gustav Holst's Jupiter at top volume in my car. I try hard not to be ostentatious about my national allegiance because I have observed that people who are ostentatious in this particular way are often not very nice or pleasant people. But when it comes to discussing Britain's relationship with the EU the question of national allegiance has to be addressed because it is unavoidably relevant. It is a potentially dangerous theme because identity and loyalty to our group are core issues whenever we find ourselves in a shooting war with someone else and the theme taps into our dark side as human beings. But it is the EU which has persistently meddled with our national identity without appreciating this danger.

If the Remainer is civil and engages rationally with me on the issues of representative government, the principles of immigration policy and the Anglo-American special relationship, I tend to like discussing such things in a rational, informed and mutually respectful way. I am sure you will endorse me in saying I don't freak out just because someone else disagrees with me. The chances are that neither of us with persuade the other but we might both end the conversation knowing more then we did before starting it.

Some things I am liable to reject as unpatriotic however. Nicola Sturgeon I consider to be a traitor and any day in which petty and humiliating misfortune befalls her or the SNP (or the Green Party) is a happy day.

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

So...Britain had to begin the formal process of leaving the EU in order to obtain some indication

[...]

It is a bit late to be offering concessions now. It suggests that the EU was being intransigent because it thought the British people would blink first and might now make us an offer of sorts only because we have really gone through with it. To say this is frustrating is like saying Attila the Hun had anger management problems. Are we really being asked to Remain on the basis that...now...finally...the EU might be willing to listen properly to our concerns?

[...]

Since the government of Marget Thatcher there were nearly no months passed, Britain hadn't any concerns about the EU. It has been a point of "chic" to have concerns for the British government & press, while not knowing by the overwhelming part of the citizens, how the EU is working/functioning.
Keyword: EU - commission (... and the British were a part of it !!!!!). They were also a part of the EU parliament (inclusively this i**t of Nigel Farage for example).
OK, the EU let meanwhile pass a lot of "British extra treatments". It would have been better to make Thatcher clear: "Shut up !"

For that reason the British government were no team players, but seen themselves as a kind of "stars" (like in football, if a player don't drop a ball to the other teamer). Or seeing the EU just only as a trade deal.

OK, the "last straw that broke the camel's back" was the the refugee - policy of Angela Merkel; for that I (personally) also having as good as no understanding. For this reason I don't understand a lot of my countrymen too.

But other states had also made hard compromises since the EU (in this form) was created.

In the way we are d'accort is, that the EU needs badly some reforms. But no system is static, also not the EU.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

Since the government of Marget Thatcher there were nearly no months passed, Britain hadn't any concerns about the EU. It has been a point of "chic" to have concerns for the British government & press, while not knowing by the overwhelming part of the citizens, how the EU is working/functioning.
Keyword: EU - commission (... and the British were a part of it !!!!!). They were also a part of the EU parliament (inclusively this i**t of Nigel Farage for example).
OK, the EU let meanwhile pass a lot of "British extra treatments". It would have been better to make Thatcher clear: "Shut up !"

For that reason the British government were no team players, but seen themselves as a kind of "stars" (like in football, if a player don't drop a ball to the other teamer). Or seeing the EU just only as a trade deal.

OK, the "last straw that broke the camel's back" was the the refugee - policy of Angela Merkel; for that I (personally) also having as good as no understanding. For this reason I don't understand a lot of my countrymen too.

But other states had also made hard compromises since the EU (in this form) was created.

In the way we are d'accort is, that the EU needs badly some reforms. But no system is static, also not the EU.

I can somewhat understand the exasperation which our EU colleague countries feel at what is certainly an unenthusiastic record from Great Britain. This is a good case of "irreconcilable differences". I also acknowledge that other EU countries have been patient about various opt outs, budget rebates and other concessions; though lest we forget, Britain has given quite a bit to the EU in return and certainly more than just her money. Britain also has tried really hard to make the relationship work. I for one feel the bitter experience of the failure of a political commitment which has lasted all my adult life and longer. I do feel a great sense of loss and in fact I shall miss the relationship.

But the price was getting higher and higher and I am not talking about money.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I am sure you will endorse me in saying I don't freak out just because someone else disagrees with me

I agree, you don't freak out -- which VEF doesn't allow anyway -- but I remember a discussion involving polonium, where a balanced argument was not possible because of fixed ideas that Putin was evil whatever happened. Evidence & reasoning did not come into it

Some things I am liable to reject as unpatriotic however. Nicola Sturgeon I consider to be a traitor and any day in which petty and humiliating misfortune befalls her or the SNP (or the Green Party) is a happy day.

Why do you say she's unpatriotic? I think she is patriotic, because an overwhelming majority of her country -- well over 60% -- voted to remain in the EU. If she takes her chances for independence because she thinks her country is better off in the EU than in the UK, there's nothing unpatriotic about it -- you just have to see it from her perspective, then look at your own and ask why you want to keep Scotland if they have other ideas

Ask yourself why you object to their ideas. What answer would you give?

[haroldeye]

I remember a discussion involving polonium, where a balanced argument was not possible because of fixed ideas that Putin was evil whatever happened. Evidence & reasoning did not come into it.

I didn't know you thought Putin was evil Palo? Wouldn't let him catch you saying that.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

I agree, you don't freak out -- which VEF doesn't allow anyway -- but I remember a discussion involving polonium, where a balanced argument was not possible because of fixed ideas that Putin was evil whatever happened. Evidence & reasoning did not come into it

Why do you say she's unpatriotic? I think she is patriotic, because an overwhelming majority of her country -- well over 60% -- voted to remain in the EU. If she takes her chances for independence because she thinks her country is better off in the EU than in the UK, there's nothing unpatriotic about it -- you just have to see it from her perspective, then look at your own and ask why you want to keep Scotland if they have other ideas

[B]Ask yourself why you object to their ideas. What answer would you give?[/]

My answer is that we are a union of nations, forged by shared history and experiences. We have fought and bled together as brothers, all for one and one for all. How many Scots have fought and died to defend Britain, because Scotland is fundamental to Britain as a country? And is Nicola Sturgeon to be allowed to cancel the allegiance for which her ancestors staked everything for tens of generations?

In many perfectly democratic and free societies, the premise of the SNP would be regarded as anti-constitutional and would be forbidden by law; rightly so IMHO. We British have been weak and stupid to allow the SNP to legally exist; we should have arrested and imprisoned its Nazi-sympathiser founders at the beginning, same as we arrested and imprisoned Oswald Moseley, and for the same crime: treason.

In the same way as I feel strongly that President Lincoln was absolutely right to crush the CSA rebellion using brute force, I regard the secessionist dream of Mrs Sturgeon and the SNP as flagrantly disloyal. It is also disloyal to the Scottish people, who have repeatedly voted against it and who are finding that the SNP will never stop demanding another new referendum every time the toilet paper runs out.

And yes, it isn't only Nicola Sturgeon's ideas to which I object. Frankly, I loathe her on a very visceral level. If she were in flames on the floor in front of me I would not make water on her.

[scoundrel]

BTW re the Polonium 210 murder, that was meant to send a message to opponents of the Russian state and I also believe in sending messages, though I wouldn't use polonium 210 for this purpose. Give us Luguvoy and the problem will go away. Otherwise, you must admit Palo, we British have been annoying out of all proportion to our actual paper size and weight in the world, a bit like a Russian horse fly. I would sincerely like our two nations to resume a friendship which would self-evidently benefit Britain. But the polonium 210 murder disrespected us. That has to be resolved, and bare faced official Russian lying and protecting the man who carried the poison is never going to resolve it.

Speaking only for myself (I have no authority to speak for anyone else) I appreciate that Luguvoy might know too much and might not be willing to take a fall. If he were to accidentally partake of polonium 210 in his tea or perhaps accidentally shoot himself 14 times with a double barrelled shotgun, I would consider the matter closed.