Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

They just starved and murdered people because of the "theory" you're so fond of.

Could you describe my theory? I'm antispecist.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Me, I think the best theories are the ones that require the fewest murders, all things considered.

Your theory is based on worldwide environmental destruction, energy wastage, social classes, greed.
Am I right?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Could you describe my theory? I'm antispecist.

You are apologizing for the 20th centuries most brutal killers, in the name of what you fancy as "Marxism"

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Your theory is based on worldwide environmental destruction, energy waste, social classes, greed.
Am I right?

Nope, again, you're wrong.

I don't have a theory.

I have a preference.

My preference is that the State ought not tell people where they may and may not live, or put a bullet in the back of their neck just because some commissar fancies them as a "kulak", a "right deviationist", a "capitalist roader", a "cosmopolitan" or whatever flavor of "enemy of the people" they fancy to torture today.

At the same time, I'd like the State to do as much as it can -- while respecting the rights and of its citizens-- to promote the health, security, education and prosperity of its citizens. This is what's called "Social Democracy".

Its the political philosophy that animates the world's most successful and prosperous places, th countries where much of the world would immigrate if they could.

I don't need "a theory" to tell me that Australia and New Zealand are pleasant places to live; its not an idea, its demonstrated. I don't need a theory to see that its better to be covered under New South Wales Medicare than Calfornia's Medicare. These aren't "ideas", they're not a book from 150 years ago.

Similarly, I don't need "a theory" to say that I've no interest in genocide, and the forced collectivization is slavery by another name. There's no complexity there-- the thing is what it is, and that's an atrocity.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

You are apologizing for the 20th centuries most brutal killers, in the name of what you fancy as "Marxism"

No. I do not apologize them. I put them on the same bench of the accused as your Occidental businessmen or royal heroes, who were criminals too.
You... apologize your criminals.

I prefer Jacquard analysis asking why Occident didn't fairly make business with Cuba?
Both sides made mistakes. It's more honorable to see history like this and going forward.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

I don't need "a theory" to tell me that Australia and New Zealand are pleasant places to live; its not an idea, its demonstrated. I don't need a theory to see that its better to be covered under New South Wales Medicare than Calfornia's Medicare. These aren't "ideas", they're not a book from 150 years ago.

Similarly, I don't need "a theory" to say that I've no interest in genocide, and the forced collectivization is slavery by another name. There's no complexity there-- the thing is what it is, and that's an atrocity.

This is the map of the most criminal countries of the planet against humanity.

More there are red, worst they are.



By the way I don't need a theory too.
I'm sure that Capitalism is the most dangerous economic system. That's my personal opinion.
We can't put a price on everything.
It was a fact that Marx described. If it was Ronald Reagan who would have described it first, I'd share his opinion. But ... it was Marx who described it the most precisely according to our Occidental ways to describe economy.
Natural ressources and biodiversity are priceless and there are no reason that pension funds and egoist people can destroy them for their own benefit during their short-term life.

[Mosco Vito]

Crimes of capitalism are countless, crimes against people and against nature. But the motive for these crimes was not political theory, but banal greed. But about this not like to speak.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Mosco Vito

Crimes of capitalism are countless, crimes against people and against nature. But the motive for these crimes was not political theory, but banal greed. But about this not like to speak.

But Marx, as Jesus Christ, Gandhi or Bouddha blamed greed.

What happened to them?
Jesus Christ was crucified by the merchants.
Gandhi was considered as a demon by the merchants.
Marx is considered as an enemy of freedom by the merchants.

Bouddha is still not blamed by the merchants, but could be soon.

[Mosco Vito]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

But Marx, as Jesus Christ, Gandhi or Bouddha blamed greed.

What happened to them?
Jesus Christ was crucified by the merchants.
Gandhi was considered as a demon by the merchants.
Marx is considered as an enemy of freedom by the merchants.

Bouddha is still not blamed by the merchants, but could be soon.

That's right. But let me repeat what I said earlier. I see the root of evil in human nature. What is capitalism, for example? Just a word, nothing more. Behind all the "isms" is a man with his terrible irrationality. There are many good theories - atheistic and religious - but none of them has ever been realized and we continue to be in this vicious circle of being.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Mosco Vito

That's right. But let me repeat what I said earlier. I see the root of evil in human nature. What is capitalism, for example? Just a word, nothing more. Behind all the "isms" is a man with his terrible irrationality. There are many good theories - atheistic and religious - but none of them has ever been realized and we continue to be in this vicious circle of being.

Just a word. True.

I try to be rational, even if I agree with you that we are irrational.

Speaking French, here is the French definition of the word: word.

Élément de la langue composé d'un ou de plusieurs phonèmes, susceptible d'une transcription écrite individualisée et participant au fonctionnement syntacticosémantique d'un énoncé.

The google translate translation in Russian is:

Элемент языка, состоящий из одной или нескольких фонем, способный к индивидуальной письменной транскрипции и участвующей в синтаксико-семантической работе высказывания.

and in English:

Element of the language composed of one or more phonemes, capable of an individualized written transcription and participating in the syntacticosemantic functioning of a statement.

What Marx said, it's that the main problem of Capitalism, it's the fact that the money always circulate to make more money.
It's not like to make money and then you keep it in your bank account and use it slowly to eat.
The problem is to reinvest it again and again and again.

If capitalism would not use raw materials, it could be not a problem.
If we would invest money in concepts, ideas that would not waste natural ressources, capitalism would be ok.

But Marx defined Capitalism by these words:

"The wealth of those societies, in which the capitalist mode of production reigns, presents itself as an "immense heap of commodities".

"immense heap of commodities"! Here is the terrible statement!


For millennia, humanity did not accumulate goods to accumulate them.
Humanity was nomadic.

One of the main problems today is that we are billions of people. The "richest" of them get tons of useless commodities and our planet can't give these commodities to all the humanity.
When people tell to the richest people: "Hmm, your model sucks and is unfair. Maybe it could be better to use a more restrictive one, but that still would be fair for everybody."
Greedy people reply: "You are an asshole, who hates freedom. You are a criminal and a dictator."
and they repeat again and again more or less true stories about unfair restrictive models of the past that are not at all what we are thinking and speaking about.

In fact, greedy (total freedom fans) people are the actual monsters, the actual dictators.
They manipulate masses through their fake notion of wealth, private property, nation and money.


Believe me. If we would be in an unlimited world, with no problems of pollutions, of ecosystem destructions, with robots working for us and everybody having fun... I'd become a fan of capitalism.

But it doesn't seem to be possible when reading scientific studies.

[Wendigo]

Communism. Good or bad ?

Generally bad, I've not really seen or heard anything positive about it.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Read "The Civil War in France".
Did you at least read Anarchist and Marxist books? Or are you afraid to be filed by the CIA if you download them or buy their books through your credit card?

No, I'm not afraid of any sad idiots in HMG or anywhere else who may be interested in my reading habits, there are millions of really entertaining books I would actually like to read on many subjects I really like; sorry but I honestly wouldn't waste any time on such banal dross.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Did you have fun during your work?
If not, you were, according to Marx, alienated.

Actually I have had fun in ALL the jobs I ever had, if I hadn't I would have moved on so I guess I am not alienated, although I never thought I ever was.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

As long as you will be afraid to lose your job, you will be a slave of a system.

I'm not afraid of losing my job, I daily do my best to help people who really deserve it and if the job changes too much so that I don't like it I will move on, so I guess I am not a slave, again I never thought I was.

Frankly people who insist on forever living by or quoting passages from 150 year old books worry me, I see very little difference between them and the bible bashing creationist morons that have evolved in the U.S.A.

If I was to choose any words to live my life by then you could do a lot worse than some more modern quotes.

"With great power there must also come ... great responsibility."
"Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor"
"It's Clobberin' Time"

And as Winston Churchill said.
"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"

'Nuff Said.
Excelsior !!

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Communism. Good or bad ?
Frankly people who insist on forever living by or quoting passages from 150 year old books worry me, I see very little difference between them and the bible bashing creationist morons that have evolved in the U.S.A.

Marx was quoted on last week by an analyst working for investment bank, telling:

The dynamics of capitalism today is exactly what Karl Marx predicted

Synthesis: the logic of this dynamic of capitalism is quite relentless
Recent developments show the dynamics of capitalism described by K. Marx:
- decline in corporate efficiency that could reduce the return on capital;
- a downward reaction to the return on capital by the distortion of income sharing in favor of profits and to the detriment of employees;
- when this deformation reaches its limit, use of speculative activities to increase the return on capital.
This dynamic necessarily leads, on the one hand, to rising income inequality and, on the other, to financial crises.

Originally Posted by Wendigo

And as Winston Churchill said.
"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time"

'Nuff Said.
Excelsior !!

You quote Churchill... not 150 years ago, but 100 years ago.

Churchill, in 1926, defined Benito Mussolini as "the greatest lawgiver alive" and again in 1940, "a great man".

But... if you read this topic, I mentionned that I never read Marx before debating with people here.
I only mentionned a Yugoslavian man, I met, who lived under Tito and told me that Communism was good. No poverty, always to eat.
Nothing else.
Then we had Palo5 telling the same.

On the other side, we see working poors in the USA earning miserable wage and living in poverty.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

You quote Churchill... not 150 years ago, but 100 years ago.

Er it was actually a speech in the House of Commons on 11 November 1947, just after WW2, that war in which one large group of Marxists couldn't quite decide which way to point their guns

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Marx was quoted on last week by an analyst working for investment bank, telling: .

Stan Lee is quoted the world over so take that Marx.

If I wanted to look up Marx quotes they don't come better than this

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." Groucho Marx

That is true in every country, even Marxist utopias