Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Hhhmmm. I don't want to offend you, but (using the words of *Noam Chomsky) "that's basically an argument for slavery."

Offend me You didn't offend me,
Offensive to me is people who don't think.

Did you grow up in a town that relied heavily on 1 or 2 industries ???
If so, did you ever work there long term ???
Did you ever see that industry leave because it became too expensive for the company ???
Did over 90 years of history cease ???
I lived through that and saw unions be a part of it all failing, but I'm fair and a realist, the company shares blame and admit it, unions didn't


Something the lefties have to realise , You don't run the company, the company don't owe you shit, The company have a job for you , a job you don't own or created, if you're not happy you can always leave for another job.

Did Marx tell you what you should do when you lose your job ???

I live in the real world, not of books and theories but actual first hand experience and emotion,

Books and theories are just that, Full of shit written by lectures and ideaologists who don't know shit but how to dream and crap on .

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Offend me You didn't offend me,
Offensive to me is people who don't think.

Did you grow up in a town that relied heavily on 1 or 2 industries ???
If so, did you ever work there long term ???
Did you ever see that industry leave because it became too expensive for the company ???
Did over 90 years of history cease ???
I lived through that and saw unions be a part of it all failing, but I'm fair and a realist, the company shares blame and admit it, unions didn't


Something the lefties have to realise , You don't run the company, the company don't owe you shit, The company have a job for you , a job you don't own or created, if you're not happy you can always leave for another job.

Did Marx tell you what you should do when you lose your job ???

I live in the real world, not of books and theories but actual first hand experience and emotion,

Books and theories are just that, Full of shit written by lectures and ideaologists who don't know shit but how to dream and crap on .

My friend!!!!
But that's all the theories of Marx that you are describing here.
All your social protections come from social fights that begun in the XIXth century.

YOU CAN'T DEFEND CAPITALISM!!!!!! Because you daily suffer of it.
You are a capitalist leftist (I was too, I voted during years for socio-democrats) and you didn't see that the capital is what has put you under slavery.

This week-end, through an initiative, I can lose my job, because of Swiss fans of American liberalism. Really.
Hopefully it seems that Swiss people will not vote for it.

But I can tell you that my colleagues who plainly lived in consumerism shit in their pants since at least two years, because of this liberal initiative. They are afraid to lose their jobs, they have children to feed, rents and debts to pay. They don't live anymore.

I've to be honest, I observed the dangers of the capitalism and tried to negociate as better as I could against this madness. But I'm not sure that I'll not be crushed by this streamroller in the future.

The human mankind has to make a peaceful revolution.
All the workers of the world have to do a sitting during two weeks or several monthes until the system changes.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

YOU CAN'T DEFEND CAPITALISM!!!!!! Because you daily suffer of it.

Get real
I get paid every month, I buy food, pay the bills, spend some on crap that I don't need but have fun doing it, hell we even manage to save some cash.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

has put you under slavery.

I almost find that insulting, not to me, to those who were real slaves, whipped chained and not paid. For a modern day worker who goes to his air conditioned office or a factory floor worker who has conditions today with regards to safety, entitlements and so on a "workers" dream compared to that of a "slave"

Please Mate, don't insult actual slaves of the past by labeling us today slaves,
But that's typical left talk, heard it all from union officials in the past who only now after even they lost their jobs working for the company I did , in their "fight for workers" bunch of lying motherfucking assholes

Did you ever actaully sweat in a factory or just read all your life ???

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Get real
I get paid every month, I buy food, pay the bills, spend some on crap that I don't need but have fun doing it, hell we even manage to save some cash.

Did you have fun during your work?
If not, you were, according to Marx, alienated.

Originally Posted by Estreeter

I almost find that insulting, not to me, to those who were real slaves, whipped chained and not paid. ......., in their "fight for workers" bunch of lying motherfucking assholes

As long as you will be afraid to lose your job, you will be a slave of a system.
When you don't want to go to work, how long can you stay at home, without beeing fired?

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Did you ever actaully sweat in a factory or just read all your life ???

I worked in a tunnel during three years... my friend. I earned a very very good salary. I thought to spend one month there and finally, thanks to friendship, I worked in the tunnel until the end.
I occasionnally spent days with the feet in the water to peel the mud.
I know what means comradship.
Believe me, that's the truth.

Originally Posted by deepsepia

No, that's wrong too. Here are some of the things I've said on this thread

and

But when you spoke about the atrocities of these forms of Communism, you always forget to mention, that these biaised forms of Communism had to fight first the ruling classes, the bourgeoisie, the nationalists, the Occidental greed (mainly the American one).

I agree with you about one fact, bad forms of Communism in stupid hands are terribly dangerous, BUT you have to admit that's exactly the same about Capitalism. Capitalism in hands of greedy people is maybe even more dangerous for the human mankind.
It's today proved by scientists, that the humanity can't survive of a worldwide form of the American way of life. We would need at least 5 planets per head. That's an egoist and terribly unfair behaviour.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

But when you spoke about the atrocities of these forms of Communism, you always forget to mention, that these biaised forms of Communism had to fight first the ruling classes, the bourgeoisie, the nationalists, the Occidental greed (mainly the American one).

I didn't "forget" anything.

Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge didn't turn Cambodia into an abbatoir because they were "fighting the ruling classes" -- they did it because of their "theory".

Stalin had a Marxist theory too. His "theory" is that farmers had to be driven onto collective farms-- from which they weren't permitted to leave. In effect, he reintroduced serfdom. Oh, and what happened-- well, millions starved to death.

No "ruling class" forced him to push people onto collective farms, its what he thought the "theory" demanded.

Mao did the same thing: forced peasants onto collective farms, persecuted "landlords" (Stalin actually told Mao not to do this, that it didn't work). He did it anyway: result? Millions starved to death.

Me, I'm not willing to look past the pile of corpses and say "what a great program for a better society".

Better societies don't start with starving people, with lining people up and shooting them . . . or with compelling them to live in one place that the State chooses, and to produce what the State tells them, and to sell it to the State at the price the State commands.

That, comrade, would be the "slavery" you speak of . . .

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

As long as you will be afraid to lose your job, you will be a slave of a system.
When you don't want to go to work, how long can you stay at home, without beeing fired?

You have to remember something , seriously , It's not a job I own, I did not create it .... I like the vast majority went and asked for the job the company own and created .... it is not yours, it is a job you have as long as they or you want it or are wanted by them . remember that, You Did not Create the job

You might not know this being a relatively new member, those that do know me here well know what I do for a living, so

I work for a brick making company now, I am the night shift supervisor for the whole site plus I am the electrician. I get paid very very well, I hate the job and only do it for the cash as I won't earn this kind of cash anywhere. The job is physically tough and mentally draining. I work 3 nights on between 12 and 14 hours and then have 5 nights off .... thats when I go MIA from here 4 nights in a row, I usually keep the first or last night off VEF free.

That all said, where I work there is no union, almost everyone there is very well paid and way above average, I just had 2 months off work due to an operation and took sick leave, all paid and still have over 200 hours of sick leave left. I have workers rights, I get paid annual leave, the odd thing is the company I work for don't have a good reputation for that reason that there is no union there yet I still enjoy the same conditions by law that all those in unionised workplaces have, and get this .... earn almost twice as them ...... there is no union crap to interfere with what the company needs, that all said, I do work harder for it but given I want that cash I have no problem working hard for it.

Slave , sorry I'm not, I do it by choice, I could just as easily leave and worker much less harder but also earn far far less.

Remember that, It's my choice and mine only.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Better societies don't start with starving people, with lining people up and shooting them . . . or with compelling them to live in one place that the State chooses, and to produce what the State tells them, and to sell it to the State at the price the State commands.

That, comrade, would be the "slavery" you speak of . . .

Yep, explain about your better society to African slaves deported to USA and Native American.

The truth is when people fight against Marxism, they defend greed, massive environmental destruction and social classes. Nothing else.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

Slave , sorry I'm not, I do it by choice, I could just as easily leave and worker much less harder but also earn far far less.

Remember that, It's my choice and mine only.

I'd tell you that you would be not a slave, if you would be not afraid to lose your job.

You hate your job, but hopefully you earn good money. I'm almost glad for you. I'd prefer that you earn good money and like your job.
What you don't understand, it's that we could all earn good money and having fun. But the people on the top of the pyramid do not want that.
Absolutely not.

Now think to the people who work for as example Wall Mark.
They earn a miserable wage and the Wall Mark owners are billionaires.

If these people do not work, they will be homeless.

Is it the kind of society you defend?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Yep, explain about your better society to African slaves deported to USA and Native American.

That is "whataboutery". And, I might add, the United States fought a war to end slavery.

Originally Posted by xyzde69

The truth is when people fight against Marxism, they defend greed, massive environmental destruction and social classes. Nothing else.

Who were the Russian peasants "fighting"? They were free men, on their own land. At one time, they were were serfs -- effectively slaves-- but in the middle of the 19th century they were freed. Stalin made them serfs again. Why? Because of his "theory".

In the process, millions died and were murdered, for no particular reason other than a "theory". These weren't White partisans; the Russian Civil War was over. This isn't something Stalin was forced to do by exigencies, this is something he _wanted_ to do.

Mao did the same thing. Chiang Kai-shek was defeated and long fled to Taiwan when Mao introduced collective farms and starved his people.

And the Khmer Rouge? Who were they fighting? The United States was gone from SE Asia, Vietnam was unified under Hanoi, and Pol Pot and his henchmen declared "Year Zero", forced the bulk of the population out of the cities into the country, where they starved or were tortured and murdered.

There's no excuse for this. In none of these cases were the regimes fighting some insurgency. They just starved and murdered people because of the "theory" you're so fond of.

Me, I think the best theories are the ones that require the fewest murders, all things considered.

[Mosco Vito]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

That is "whataboutery". And, I might add, the United States fought a war to end slavery.



Who were the Russian peasants "fighting"? They were free men, on their own land. At one time, they were were serfs -- effectively slaves-- but in the middle of the 19th century they were freed. Stalin made them serfs again. Why? Because of his "theory".

It is not so simple. Peasants were liberated without lands, they had to buy the lands on unfavorable terms. The calculation showed that the redemption value of the land was many times higher than its real price. In fact, it was a robbery. Unsettled land issue largely contributed to the Russian revolutions of 1905 and 1917.

As for Pol Pot...There is a version the resettlement of people from cities to villages was forced, because they simply could not feed in conditions of degradation of agriculture. This was facilitated by including the brutal US bombing of Cambodia in 1970-1973.