The NFL and NBA thread

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by keefriff

I hear you on the loyalty of players but I think it goes both ways. Owners don't have loyalty to many players. When players reach the point of diminishing returns, they get released or traded. End of story. I know we all pine for the old days but those days are gone, gone, gone. No sense in wishing because they ain't coming back. I hear you 100% on the feeling that the players don't "care" as much as fans do. But that is a fan talking. How do we know what the players feel? This is their job and I think most do it with a real passion. If you don't play these sports with a passion to win, I don't think you would last long at the proffessional level. That desire and passion is part of what makes them pro athletes. I don't think they feel the same passion as fans do because they look at it through different eyes. But if you watch sports you see players crying at the end of championship games and you see guys rejoicing ecstatically. I think most, if not all, care alot about winning. Maybe just not the same way as a fan cares.

Not to be a know it all, but Messier, Gretzky played for Edmonton and not Montreal. Let's not get our Canadian brothers longjohns in a bundle. Like they are reading this thread anyways. Where's the hockey thread eh?

Now don't get me started on college sports. I love college sports, especially the passion of the participants, but it one of the most hypocritical operations that has ever existed. The NCAA is a complete joke but that is for another thread.

As far as Gretz and Mess;

Gretzky never held the cup again after leaving Edmonton. As well, the fans in Edmonton NEVER forgave Peter Pocklington (owner) for breaking up that team and taking McNalls millions for WG. Especially after Edmonton East won the Cup...

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

Nope - let me explain it this way;

Ever hear of a player called Guy Lafleur? He was a Montreal GOD. Did everything in Mtl, and was everything. There were money issues and he left, went to the Rangers and then the Nordiques.

Did Montrealers stop cheering for the Habs and buy jerseys with Lafleurs name on it, with NY or Que? Nope. He was gone. He was no longer a Hab. The TEAM was bigger than the player.

My point about the money is this; Why do you care, what Lebron makes?

"I don't begrudge ANY proffesional athlete for trying to get the most that he can."

Even to the detriment of your team? So you support the player, over the team, I guess? So Jamarcus Russell getting $39 million from the Raiders was cool, right?

BTW: Not that it matters much, but there is a stat bandied about that 75% of NFL players face financial hardship with 5 years of retirement. That makes it the rule and not the exception (like in Minneapolis) FAR MORE GUYS GOING BANKRUPT, then having their careers ended by injury...

No - I am very much a union guy. Owners would pay players as little as they could, without a doubt.


But I am also an HONOUR guy...that is what I am talking about.

The problem is that honour AND chasing the dollar seldom meet. What LeBron did was not honourable. See your boy from the Timberwolves - KG? Played hard, played alone (in futility) so they did him a favour and traded him to Boston to play for some titles. Did KG hold a press conference? Make a splash? Dance with Ray Allen and Pierce on a stage upon his arrival? KG gave the best years of his life to the Timberwolves.

Lebron...not so much...

Ever hear of Ray Bourque? Boston to the Avs?

(On the NHL cap thing)

Apparently, most of the players were ready to accept a cap, but the lawyers for the players wouldn't let it happen. Once the dust settled, players LOST as much as 25% of their salaries AND got a hard cap. Now, the NHLPA has torn itself apart...

It's just my feeling that players in the NBA play more for the paycheck, than for the love of the game.

I agree with you about cheering for your team as opposed to the players. I am right there with you on that but I don't blame the players for trying to get everything that they can. Torii Hunter was/is one of my favorite players. When he became a free agent he expressed his desire to stay with the Twins. The Twins offered him a contract that was approx 70 million less than what the Angels offered. He signed with the Angels. Am I pissed at him for that? No. Am I pissed at the team for that? Not really because they felt he was dispensable and they had priorities with other players who were going to get big contracts. Sure it's great when guys take the hometown discount but I can't blame the ones that don't. That's the way it goes. That's business. I still support my team and I don't get pissed if the player tries to get what the market will support. That doesn't mean I support the player more than the team. It means I support the players right to get his fair market value. And yes, I remember Guy LaFluer

Why do I care how much LeBron makes? I don't. Why do you seem to object to how much he makes? And don't forget, LeBron didn't chase the money, he took less to sign with Miami.

As far as J. Russell goes, I don't begrudge him one bit for his contract. The NFL has a slotted pay scale for rookie draft picks in their current CBA and that was the figure he was entitled to as the first pick in the draft. Is this a good system? Not in my opinion and it will likely change in the next CBA. Is he a bust and a complete waste of money? No question about it but the Raiders are partly to blame for that. They selected him at number one, he performed poorly and they released him with I thnk 1-2 years left on his non-guaranteed contract. There are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL so that is why agents and players demand so much up front. Now if the Raiders decide to go after that money because he was a doper or violated terms of his contract, I would support that too. I think both players and management realize the need to fix this problem regarding NFL rookies but I can't blame Russell for getting that money. I can blame him for being a lazy, unmotivated, overweight bust but not for getting that contract. Actors get huge upfront money to make movies that suck and make no money. Musicians get paid big money up front to release crappy albums that don't make money. What's the difference? Performance is performance and when their next contract is up it will reflect that. Just ask J. Russell.

As a union guy, I am surprised that you wouldn't support players trying to get the most that they can. If salaries rise throughout the league because of new and bigger contracts isn't that good for all of the union members?

As far as KG goes, it was a mutual decision by him and the team.He did play hard, so did LeBron, and was rewarded for that with the biggest contract in the NBA. They felt they couldn't win with him anymore and he wanted to win. They traded him to the C's. Fair enough. He held a press conference when he got to Boston and it rankled alot of T-Wolves fans. KG handled it with relative grace. LeBron handled it very poorly as I stated in my first post on this thread. He acted boorishly and self centered. No question about that but KG and LeBron were two different situations at two very different times.

No hard feelings between you and me Qwerty007, we just see things a little differently. That's okay...that what makes the world go round. But I am pissed that you blew my cover about my hometown. Now I may have to move across the river to the 651.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by keefriff

I agree with you about cheering for your team as opposed to the players. I am right there with you on that but I don't blame the players for trying to get everything that they can. Torii Hunter was/is one of my favorite players. When he became a free agent he expressed his desire to stay with the Twins. The Twins offered him a contract that was approx 70 million less than what the Angels offered. He signed with the Angels. Am I pissed at him for that? No. Am I pissed at the team for that? Not really because they felt he was dispensable and they had priorities with other players who were going to get big contracts. Sure it's great when guys take the hometown discount but I can't blame the ones that don't. That's the way it goes. That's business. I still support my team and I don't get pissed if the player tries to get what the market will support. That doesn't mean I support the player more than the team. It means I support the players right to get his fair market value. And yes, I remember Guy LaFluer

Why do I care how much LeBron makes? I don't. Why do you seem to object to how much he makes? And don't forget, LeBron didn't chase the money, he took less to sign with Miami.

As far as J. Russell goes, I don't begrudge him one bit for his contract. The NFL has a slotted pay scale for rookie draft picks in their current CBA and that was the figure he was entitled to as the first pick in the draft. Is this a good system? Not in my opinion and it will likely change in the next CBA. Is he a bust and a complete waste of money? No question about it but the Raiders are partly to blame for that. They selected him at number one, he performed poorly and they released him with I thnk 1-2 years left on his non-guaranteed contract. There are no guaranteed contracts in the NFL so that is why agents and players demand so much up front. Now if the Raiders decide to go after that money because he was a doper or violated terms of his contract, I would support that too. I think both players and management realize the need to fix this problem regarding NFL rookies but I can't blame Russell for getting that money. I can blame him for being a lazy, unmotivated, overweight bust but not for getting that contract. Actors get huge upfront money to make movies that suck and make no money. Musicians get paid big money up front to release crappy albums that don't make money. What's the difference? Performance is performance and when their next contract is up it will reflect that. Just ask J. Russell.

As a union guy, I am surprised that you wouldn't support players trying to get the most that they can. If salaries rise throughout the league because of new and bigger contracts isn't that good for all of the union members?

As far as KG goes, it was a mutual decision by him and the team.He did play hard, so did LeBron, and was rewarded for that with the biggest contract in the NBA. They felt they couldn't win with him anymore and he wanted to win. They traded him to the C's. Fair enough. He held a press conference when he got to Boston and it rankled alot of T-Wolves fans. KG handled it with relative grace. LeBron handled it very poorly as I stated in my first post on this thread. He acted boorishly and self centered. No question about that but KG and LeBron were two different situations at two very different times.

No hard feelings between you and me Qwerty007, we just see things a little differently. That's okay...that what makes the world go round. But I am pissed that you blew my cover about my hometown. Now I may have to move across the river to the 651.

WOW - how was Torii going to make ends meet?

Hmmmmmmm - it was tough to figure out (The 612)

I appreciate your candour.

Ironically (although they haven't released the terms of the deal) Lebron is taking less to play with Wade and Bosh, which I applaud - I cannot get past the way he got there.

The general sentiment I have is that winning takes a back seat to earning max dollars. That, IMO, is wrong.

Secondly, I cannot understand why fans would be happy for a guy (or even encourage them) to 'get paid', as they call it (or 'get yours'). Me working for $25 an hour in a union, has absolutely nothing in common with Lebron making $15 million...apples and oranges.

There is a general sense of entitlement that raises my hackles, about the players today.

Albert Haynesworth ring a bell? All the holdouts who want to renegotiate 2 years into a 5 year contract? I guess the answer would be "Well - he outperformed his contract" and I would ask - so guys like Jamarcus who underperform, they'll be returning some money?

How much is enough? $5 million? $10 million? $1 million?

I'm just rambling, but at the end of the day - players have lost sight of whatever game they play...it's all about the dollars

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by keefriff

No hard feelings between you and me Qwerty007, we just see things a little differently. That's okay...that what makes the world go round. But I am pissed that you blew my cover about my hometown. Now I may have to move across the river to the 651.

Hey, I should be the guy hiding his location! I'm from Jersey .

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

WOW - how was Torii going to make ends meet?

Hmmmmmmm - it was tough to figure out (The 612)

I appreciate your candour.

Ironically (although they haven't released the terms of the deal) Lebron is taking less to play with Wade and Bosh, which I applaud - I cannot get past the way he got there.

The general sentiment I have is that winning takes a back seat to earning max dollars. That, IMO, is wrong.

Secondly, I cannot understand why fans would be happy for a guy (or even encourage them) to 'get paid', as they call it (or 'get yours'). Me working for $25 an hour in a union, has absolutely nothing in common with Lebron making $15 million...apples and oranges.

There is a general sense of entitlement that raises my hackles, about the players today.

Albert Haynesworth ring a bell? All the holdouts who want to renegotiate 2 years into a 5 year contract? I guess the answer would be "Well - he outperformed his contract" and I would ask - so guys like Jamarcus who underperform, they'll be returning some money?

How much is enough? $5 million? $10 million? $1 million?

I'm just rambling, but at the end of the day - players have lost sight of whatever game they play...it's all about the dollars

I see your sense of entitlement Qwerty & raise you ticket prices. Yankees fans for example all end up agreeing that we want the best players, but very few every argue about salaries. I used to go to a few games at the old Yankee Stadium every year (usually interleague games with the Mets & divisional games with Boston).

I remember when the Yankees dotted the "i's" & crossed the "t's" with Alex Rodriguez like it was yesterday. I turned to my buddy who went with me usually & said, "well, it WAS fun being able to go to the stadium." Ticket prices across all seats went up a minimum of $10. That was after a day at Yankee Stadium cost roughly $100 per person with parking, food, the ticket, a beer or 2 & some sort of souvenir.

I usually let the rest of the country argue about players salaries & the impact on the fans. Being right next to New York (& a Yankees fan to boot) I feel disingenuous when my team supports the entire league through revenue sharing & luxury taxes. We seem to have unlimited financial resources.

I've been to exactly 1 game since the A-Rod signing & that was last year, because my sister took me there as a birthday present. The team's payroll exceeds $200 million & every cent of that cost gets passed on down to the fan.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Hey, I should be the guy hiding his location! I'm from Jersey .

You know that California is the state that has the most amount of lawyers in the U.S., and Jersey has the highest amount of toxic waste dumps in the union.

I hear New Jersey got first pick...

ANYWAYS...

Have you been to Rutherford to see the new stadium? Planning on seeing any games? I hear a PIZZA at JerryWorld will set you back $60 bucks!! Wonder what the prices will be like by you??

I agree - it's gotten out of control, but as long as people shell out the bucks, they'll keep raising prices. It is impossible to get tickets for a Habs game in Montreal, but I lived in FL for awhile and managed to see them a handful of times...and didn't have to sell my firstborn to do it!!

Back to A-Rod...another case of entitlement. You hear what Torre had to say about him? (and you know Joe is about as down to earth as you can get...)

How do people get like this???? Albert Haynesworth not showing up and crying for a trade because he doesn't want to play nose tackle!!!!

I gotta stop before I throw something at the TV!

Are you a Sanchez fan? Or Peyton's kid brother...

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

You know that California is the state that has the most amount of lawyers in the U.S., and Jersey has the highest amount of toxic waste dumps in the union.

I hear New Jersey got first pick...

ANYWAYS...

Have you been to Rutherford to see the new stadium? Planning on seeing any games? I hear a PIZZA at JerryWorld will set you back $60 bucks!! Wonder what the prices will be like by you??

I agree - it's gotten out of control, but as long as people shell out the bucks, they'll keep raising prices. It is impossible to get tickets for a Habs game in Montreal, but I lived in FL for awhile and managed to see them a handful of times...and didn't have to sell my firstborn to do it!!

Back to A-Rod...another case of entitlement. You hear what Torre had to say about him? (and you know Joe is about as down to earth as you can get...)

How do people get like this???? Albert Haynesworth not showing up and crying for a trade because he doesn't want to play nose tackle!!!!

I gotta stop before I throw something at the TV!

Are you a Sanchez fan? Or Peyton's kid brother...

It's not just all toxic waste dumps my brother. There's a yellow stain in the sky above Newark & Elizabeth as if God Himself decided to urinate on us all!

I have to say I've never been inside of Giants Stadium for a game in my entire life. They have to be some of the hardest tickets to come by. Unless you were a Jets fan until recently. Then it probably wasn't that hard to get in . I'm a Giants fan & I think they've been sold out on season tickets since the days of Lawrence Taylor. I know people that make the trip to Philadelphia or Washington DC just to see the Giants play because they can't get in. I feel your pain with the Habs. Funny how you have to go to Florida where there IS NO ICE just to see your favorite hockey team play (I know you said you lived there).

Even season ticket holders were bent over the rails when they built this new stadium. Both Giants & Jets fans who purchased seats decades ago were extorted for thousands of more $ by the franchises because of the PSL's or whatever they're called. The biggest rip off in sports history if you ask me. If you buy 1 of these licenses for the seat, it only covers the game. It's not like you get to see say... Bruce Springsteen if he's playing Giants Stadium. You could technically buy a ticket for that & wind up in an entirely different section of the stadium. It drives me batshit crazy! I have a cousin who had his Jets season tickets willed to him from his grandfather. The Jets wanted an additional $20,000 on top of the ticket prices for him to keep his seats! He had a mortgage to pay so he couldn't do it.

It's sad to say, but the hardcore Giants fan is stuck outside the stadium, tailgating in the parking lot & watching it on TV. I've been to some of those gatherings outside. These people deserve better than this. It's like something out of a bad medieval movie - the peasants outside the castle walls looking up at the monarchs.... disgusting!

A-Rod was the type of guy I was speaking of when mentioning passionless players. I think he cares way too much about what people think about him. Contrast that with Derek Jeter who's been known to dive full speed into the stands to catch a foul ball for an out. A-Rod would be too worried about scratching his face!

Last but not least... as I said I'm a Giants fan, so give me Eli over Sanchez any day of the week. Did you see how Sanchez was last year? Eating a hot dog during the game, scolding the media as if he had an entire season under his belt, commercials all over the place like he won something..... just gross.
But what does anybody really expect from a USC quarterback. Matt Leinert's the same way for Arizona. Those guys are superstars 1st & NFL players 2nd. I don't think everyone from USC is like that - just the QB's.

BTW, anyone ever see this movie?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0131857/

It's a comedy that perfectly mocks the current state of sports in the US.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by grossnex

It's not just all toxic waste dumps my brother. There's a yellow stain in the sky above Newark & Elizabeth as if God Himself decided to urinate on us all!

I have to say I've never been inside of Giants Stadium for a game in my entire life. They have to be some of the hardest tickets to come by. Unless you were a Jets fan until recently. Then it probably wasn't that hard to get in . I'm a Giants fan & I think they've been sold out on season tickets since the days of Lawrence Taylor. I know people that make the trip to Philadelphia or Washington DC just to see the Giants play because they can't get in. I feel your pain with the Habs. Funny how you have to go to Florida where there IS NO ICE just to see your favorite hockey team play (I know you said you lived there).

Even season ticket holders were bent over the rails when they built this new stadium. Both Giants & Jets fans who purchased seats decades ago were extorted for thousands of more $ by the franchises because of the PSL's or whatever they're called. The biggest rip off in sports history if you ask me. If you buy 1 of these licenses for the seat, it only covers the game. It's not like you get to see say... Bruce Springsteen if he's playing Giants Stadium. You could technically buy a ticket for that & wind up in an entirely different section of the stadium. It drives me batshit crazy! I have a cousin who had his Jets season tickets willed to him from his grandfather. The Jets wanted an additional $20,000 on top of the ticket prices for him to keep his seats! He had a mortgage to pay so he couldn't do it.

It's sad to say, but the hardcore Giants fan is stuck outside the stadium, tailgating in the parking lot & watching it on TV. I've been to some of those gatherings outside. These people deserve better than this. It's like something out of a bad medieval movie - the peasants outside the castle walls looking up at the monarchs.... disgusting!

A-Rod was the type of guy I was speaking of when mentioning passionless players. I think he cares way too much about what people think about him. Contrast that with Derek Jeter who's been known to dive full speed into the stands to catch a foul ball for an out. A-Rod would be too worried about scratching his face!

Last but not least... as I said I'm a Giants fan, so give me Eli over Sanchez any day of the week. Did you see how Sanchez was last year? Eating a hot dog during the game, scolding the media as if he had an entire season under his belt, commercials all over the place like he won something..... just gross.
But what does anybody really expect from a USC quarterback. Matt Leinert's the same way for Arizona. Those guys are superstars 1st & NFL players 2nd. I don't think everyone from USC is like that - just the QB's.

BTW, anyone ever see this movie?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0131857/

It's a comedy that perfectly mocks the current state of sports in the US.

You're right.

I think the sense of entitlement starts in college.

Haven't seen the movie, but I've heard of it.

PSL's...what a scam. Timeshare salesmen, these guys!

SO: Can Eli win another SB? Will either of the Manning boys get another one...and which one?

I am a Steeler fan, have been for over 40 yrs (it's the team we had on the TV on Sundays in Mtl) Franco Harris, Bradshaw, Webster, Cunningham, Blier, Mel Blout, LC Greenwood, Mean Joe, Ham, Lambert...I could go on and on...

...I sound like my parents did..BUT THESE GUYS,,,played the game.

KEEFRIFF: Vikings fan?

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

You're right.

I think the sense of entitlement starts in college.

Haven't seen the movie, but I've heard of it.

PSL's...what a scam. Timeshare salesmen, these guys!

SO: Can Eli win another SB? Will either of the Manning boys get another one...and which one?

I am a Steeler fan, have been for over 40 yrs (it's the team we had on the TV on Sundays in Mtl) Franco Harris, Bradshaw, Webster, Cunningham, Blier, Mel Blout, LC Greenwood, Mean Joe, Ham, Lambert...I could go on and on...

...I sound like my parents did..BUT THESE GUYS,,,played the game.

KEEFRIFF: Vikings fan?

We can definitely agree on the Steelers. The Giants were bad for a while after Bill Parcells left, so I needed a team to root for once the playoffs started. The Steelers were always a close 2nd for me in terms of teams that I like. I can't say I'm a Pittsburgh fan, but I really do like them.

I think Eli can win another Super Bowl. Who knows... maybe even this year. Peyton on the other hand needs a lot of luck because he's no spring chicken anymore. The Colts weren't that good last year. In my opinion, Peyton got them to the Super Bowl single handedly.

I agree whole heartedly about those old Steelers guys. I just don't see that kind of heart from today's guys. There are a few, but not nearly enough. I remember watching a Giants game in the '80's where Lawrence Taylor played the entire game with a separated shoulder & still dominated! I remember another game in the '90's where Emmitt Smith ran a virtual marathon against the Giants for the Cowboys. Again, with a separated shoulder. I'll even give Brett Favre kudo's for playing the 2nd half of the only season he had with the Jets, with a torn bicep muscle. But, these instances are few & far between if you ask me.

As far as the movie, I've never seen a funnier sports movie, so I figured I'd pass it along. I can do without the ending (don't want to spoil it for you), but 99.9% of the movie is fall down funny!

[keefriff]

Yes. A LONG suffering Vikings fan.