In or out?

[AMON]

Well heres my penny's worth...
I do think it's a shame that we've been pushed to this point. The idea of a group of independent trading nations always seemed good. I just feel it has been hijacked and corrupted by career politicians. The old saying holds, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Messrs Barroso, Kinnock and the rest so I am led to understand were pretty anti-Europe until they realised that they could get power without having to deal with an inconvenient electorate. It strikes me that centralising laws and economies under the guise of standardisation has the whiff of another attempt at communism. This is helped all the more by an electorate, certainly in the UK, who hardly bother to vote for the MEPs that keep them there. This seems to have created a self perpetuating bureaucracy who create more and more laws that appear daft to say the least.
I have heard that some of the yet-to-join ex soviet bloc countries such as Ukraine have experienced a public reaction against membership due to the feeling that it took seven decades to escape the centralised incompetent bureacracy of the USSR so why join another one? I think there is also a deep rooted scepticism about the fact that Germany has become the most powerful economy in Europe and a suspicion that she means to stay that way by controlling the European economy via the Euro.
The key reason for the UK anger at the EC is the migration. I suspect that if the expected hordes of Rumanian and Bulgarian 'job-seekers' were to appear in 2014 the No vote would be a foregone conclusion (hence the reason all three UK political parties are in a panic). However, I would venture that this occurence would be almost worse for the countries they come from, since apart from unskilled labour, I suspect the brain drain would result in both Bulgaria and Rumania losing huge numbers of Nurses, Doctors, Engineers etcetera. In the nineties I remember the UK being accused of almost clearing the Philippines of its medical professionals by enticing them over to join the NHS.
I also don't think there would be the same bonhomie if 500,000 retiring Brits decided to move to Warsaw or Belgrade, buy up the houses and force the cost of living up, which I suspect might happen if prices in the UK keep shooting up.

For me, I want to be part of a European Trading Group, but not of a politicians gravy train as it seems every failed or incompetent politician can always count on a nice job in Brussels.

Okay thats my little rant, over to you!

[palo5]

Originally Posted by mizlaplan

I think we should stay in but the EU needs to realise that it functions best as a bloc of independant nations which each have autonomy and control of their own security/finances.

Ok, so you're in the UN and agree to finance them. And you're in Nato and finance them and go to irresponsible wars as a result. But you still get bombed and are in control of security and finances?

Clearly the matter is not so simple

[mizlaplan]

Agreed, it isn't simple.
But it is simpler.

[richardoe]

Im a liitle bit cynical towards the referendum but I will be voting, in fact Ive voted in every election since I got the vote. Why am I cynical? Well is a government really going to hold a referendum its going to lose? I dont think so, thats why theres never been a referndum on the restoration of the death penalty. But Im not going to start debating about the death penalty on this thread.

[calypsored]

Without wishing to trivialise your post, DampPatch, a lot of it does read, by design or not, like a parody of the 'Romans' sketch by the Pythons! The long list of supposed advances contains little that could not be negotiated (rather than imposed) by mature discussions between nation states, and the 57% of our trade was not and is not provided by the EU! Continental Europe and Britain are natural trading partners, were before the EU and will be after it if for no other reason than proximity and shared values.

What prompts me to be inclined strongly to an 'out' vote is that I think the populations of both Great Britain and our continental neighbours have been systematically mislead over the years as to the true political nature of the European project. The cost might be relatively small in terms of GDP, but imo so is the economic benefit.

Personally I will eat my hat if this Referendum ever happens, for the reasons Richardoe alludes to. Why do you think every politician thus far, promises or no, has bottled it? Because they know or suspect they can't trust the Great British Public to give the right answer. Even if Cameron is successful in 2015 or whenever he calls an election you can be reasonably sure there'll be a reason for not holding a referendum.

As for the Euro....are people really that surprised that it's failed! Of course we mustn't join it for the sake of our economy, our heritage and our national identity.

[cabclive]

I voted in in 75, but there is to much take by those in power, i hate those eurocrats, so its out for me.

[haroldeye]

Palo - we shouldn't join the euro because;

We lose control of our own currency and are therefore beholden to those that control the euro. You may have noticed both Greece and Italy had senior politicians foisted onto them by Berlin.
They conditions set for the euro to be a successful currency were met only by three nations that were eligible to join. Because the politicians and officials know more about everything than the economists, bankers and accountants, they encouraged nations to cheat and cook they books in order to join. France pretended that a huge part of it's debt didn't exist for one year. None of the PIGS nations came anywhere near meeting the criteria but the political imperative was that the idea of monetary union was more important than any actuality.

The euro was seen by the eurofanatics as a means of controlling euro nations and by the Germans as a means of keeping their currency competitive. The PIGS are depressing the euro giving the Germans an estimated 29% boost to their economy.

The main impetus to keep the euro has not come from the markets but from the officials and politicians who set it up.

Finally Palo old son, would you put your money into an organisation that has not had it's accounts signed off by the auditors for at least 20 years?

All this from a pro european too!

[rupertramjet]

I would vote out. My reasons are that the EU, as it now is bears no relationship to the Common Market we joined. I agree with the open market, but do not agree with the bolt ons and loss of political and sovereign rights. The European Court, has consistently shown bias towards Britain. The Human Rights legislation is ridiculous, preventing us from deporting rapists, murderers and other serious offenders.

[otokonomidori]

I voted to stay in the EEC in 1975 - a trading union seemed like a damned good idea.

The idea that people in "far off lands of whom we knew nothing" would have a say in British affairs wasn't mentioned.

If Cameron can renegotiate Britain's membership so that we can regain control of our borders and set our own labour and employment laws - if he can make it more like the EEC we voted for in 1975, I might vote to stay in. Otherwise I will vote to leave the European socialism by the back door project.

[haroldeye]

Damp Patch in post 8 you eloquently state what the EU has done for us. Sadly when cutting and pasting one should check the figures, especially from the letters column of the Guardian.

The EU accounts for 48% of our trade (53.5% UK goods exports and 39.7% of service exports) and the cost is not around £7Bn but payments of £19.2Bn and receipts of £11Bn making a grand cost of 8.2Bn.

Really one would think a lecturer in political economy might get his facts right.