Atheist, are you one??

[howerd]

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

Ah, my friends you are mistaking religion, which was made by man, and God who has always existed for the believer.

How do you know that any god has always existed Paddy?

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

"I am that I am." (Exodus 3:14)

But that claim comes from the Torah / Bible i.e. Jewish & Christian holy books & they are religions which according to you are man made.

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

The simple explanation is that there is only one God and people call Him, Her, It by many different names.

A far simpler explanation is that there's no god at all but people imagine that there is (or are) & come up with lots of different ideas about what he, she, it or they are.

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

That is where the problem comes from as people shaped religion. People believe that God acts like them.

Imagining that a gods acts at all is just as notional seeing as there's no sign of any anywhere.

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

I often wonder if it all began when Ugh the sun worshiping caveman met Zug the moon worshiper and killed him for being a heretic.

Maybe. After all if you want people to obey you all you need to do is tell them that you know what God wants - the problem is, anyone else can make the same claim & sooner or later you have a holy war on your hands as a result.

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

Or was it actually a fight over hunting grounds and the religious argument was a convenient excuse? "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me." (Nahum 1:2)

Quit possibly.

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

Or is it all about jealous people who hate others?

It often looks like it yes.

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

Religion is still tied up in politics, economics, and social beliefs. Just because you have "Gott Mit Uns" on your belt buckle or shout "Allah Akbar" doesn't mean God is on your side as you slaughter different or nonbelievers, but try telling this to Nazis or Muslim fanatics.

Why imagine that any god is on anyone's side seeing as there's no good reason to believe god claims?

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

One more thing; I don't know what is out there in the supernatural or science department. The idea of a creator God sounds just as strange to me as a lightning bolt hitting a puddle containing amino acids and creating life.

Who's saying that that's how life started anyway? Appealing to 'the supernatural' tells us absolutely nothing worth hearing about so why us such a meaningless word when you could simply say 'unknown'? There's only one thing you can say about the unknown: it's not known so why pretend that it is known?

[Sir Honkers]

I think you missing Mr Bog's point howerd. He seems to be pointing out the fallacies of religion and how it actually has nothing to do with god but everything to do with what the believers want their version of god to be. It might be that in Paddy's view the question of God's existence or otherwise has nothing to do with religion...I view I kind of agree with.

[Paddy Bog]

Thanks, loosegoose. You got the message. Good friend Howerd is an atheist so he doesn't see a supreme being at all. Many people do believe a supreme being exists so to them it is not an "unknown." God has always existed for them, hence "I am that I am" is a truth that can't be denied. Those who believe in a scientific explanation have several suggestions of the beginning of life. I just mentioned one of them. These ideas are just as "unknown" as religious ideas are to Howerd. I am open to all these ideas being studied and debated. It is how we learn.

[howerd]

Originally Posted by loosegoose

I think you missing Mr Bog's point howerd. He seems to be pointing out the fallacies of religion and how it actually has nothing to do with god but everything to do with what the believers want their version of god to be. It might be that in Paddy's view the question of God's existence or otherwise has nothing to do with religion...I view I kind of agree with.

I don't agree because he said:

Originally Posted by Paddy Bog

The simple explanation is that there is only one God and people call Him, Her, It by many different names.

That's not an 'explanation' at all. It's an unconformable claim along the lines of:

The simple explanation is that there is only one Santa Claus and people call Him, Her, It by many different names.

[Sir Honkers]

Originally Posted by howerd

I don't agree because he said:



That's not an 'explanation' at all. It's an unconformable claim along the lines of:

The simple explanation is that there is only one Santa Claus and people call Him, Her, It by many different names.

If Paddy's stating it as his belief I agree with you, if however he's offering it as a explanation of how people who believe in god can believe different things about it, then that's a different beast. LOL even I'm getting confused now...I think nuanced conversations are best had in person out in the beer garden on a sunny day.

[TioMegamanX]

I am, I was raised catholic and went through a lot of phases while searching for something "mystically reliable" so to speak, but then I just put things into perspective and just became an atheist.

[charliels531]

I became an atheist by growing up in the fetid mess that is American Protestantism in the 1950s. I am still on speaking terms with the Quaker and Unitarian parts of my past, but I gave up any belief in magic or Sky Fairies by the time I was 16.

It is a liberating experience. The real universe is far more mysterious and interesting than any collection of myths and magic tricks conjured by theologians.

[charliels531]

Originally Posted by peach64

Book of Enoch oldest book ever written

Among the many books at least a millenium older:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching

[Roubignol]

But isn't atheism too extreme in comparison to agnosticism?

I was raised catholic. It was like a lobotomy. I'm sure an agnostic. I'm absolutely unable to tell if there is nothing or one God or gods or if we are cells of an entity like cells that constitute our own body.

I see religions as purely social and cultural constructs, based on philosophies (and gossips), whose main historical function would be to ensure cohesion and order in traditional human societies.

Nevertherless, after reading Tolstoi and listening Muslim and even French Communist humanists speaking of the sermon on the mount, I recently spent time to read it.

If we all follow the principles of this sermon, there will be no more poverty and brutality on Earth. We will all collaborate together like Anarcho Communist to get a better world.

[howerd]

Originally Posted by Roubignol

But isn't atheism too extreme in comparison to agnosticism?

No. Is it too extreme to say "I don't believe claims that there are mermaids under the sea" rather than "I don't know whether there are any mermaids under the sea"?

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I was raised catholic. It was like a lobotomy. I'm sure an agnostic. I'm absolutely unable to tell if there is nothing or one God or gods or if we are cells of an entity like cells that constitute our own body.

Yes well strictly speaking I'm an agnostic atheist myself because I also don't know if there are any gods either however I'm no more agnostic about god claims as I am about claims that there are mermaids somewhere under the sea. I cannot know either claim is untrue but there's no good reason to believe that either of them is true is there?

Originally Posted by Roubignol

I see religions as purely social and cultural constructs, based on philosophies (and gossips), whose main historical function would be to ensure cohesion and order in traditional human societies.

So do I.

Originally Posted by Roubignol

Nevertherless, after reading Tolstoi and listening Muslim and even French Communist humanists speaking of the sermon on the mount, I recently spent time to read it.

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself." Jesus Christ's sermon on the mount (Matthew 6:34) - Hardly good advice in the 21st century with the impending disaster of climate change & species collapse on our doorstep due to man made climate change is it now?

Originally Posted by Roubignol

If we all follow the principles of this sermon, there will be no more poverty and brutality on Earth. We will all collaborate together like Anarcho Communist to get a better world.

No we will continue to melt the ice caps & destroy the the fragile web of life upon which we all depend if we listen to Jesus & take no thought for the morrow. That's the last thing we ought to do because it's really dumb advice!