The Second World War.

[dethtongue]

Originally Posted by palo5

I think they changed the plan because Plan A offered no almost no chance of destroying the British & French forces. But Plan B would destroy them completely, as we saw

The first plan was a conservative reinactment of the Von Schleiffen plan. It failed to really please anyone but it offered the dubious advantages of setting the trench lines in foreign soil and offered the oppurtunity to develop air bases within range of Great Britan. Remember this was before Blitzkreig had really proved itself as a revolutionary form of warefare and everyone was expecting (dreading) a return to the old trench warfare that had permiated the Western Front during WWI.

The second plan was created by none other than Erich Von Manstein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_manstein
who at that time was a relatively insignifigant corps commander (he may even have only been a division commander. Its been awhile.) Mansteins superior officer dismissed the plan out of hand as did a number of senior officers on the General Staff. Hitler, gambler that he was, was drawn to the audaciousness of it:

The principal thrust thru the Ardennes was unexpected, always a plus when dealing with what the enemy expects, but it offered the further advantage of positioning the bulk of the Germans offensive power squarely in line with the flank of the allied powers as they raced to meet the "real" threat developing out of Belgium/ Holland. As a further bonus it actually pivoted exactly OPPOSITE of the Von Schliffen plan with the reasoning that by racing North-West towards the coast instead of South-West towards Paris the Germans would sever the communication and supply of the Allied armies that were positioned to meet the "real" offensive coming from the Belgium-Holland Axis.

It was a bold and in every way utterly ingenuous plan designed to destroy armies rather than sieze a city. After several Months Hitler's intuition let him to choose the second plan and the rest, as they say, is history.

[Ennath]

January 11, 1923
Germany, Politics France and Belgium occupy the Ruhr in an attempt to enforce the payment of reparations in which Germany has fallen behind. In 1921, a provisional figure of 132 billion marks has been set (equivalent to $33 billion). One of the reasons for Germany’s failure to keep up payments is the decline in the value of the mark. In 1918, it stood at 4 marks to the dollar, in the summer of 1921 at 75, in the summer of 1922 at 400 and is now over 700; by July it will be 160,000. The peak is not until November, when the rate will be 130 billion marks to the dollar, by which time the German economy is essentially being run by barter and money is being used for wallpaper. The Germans adopt a policy of passive resistance and French and Belgian technicians have to be brought in to operate mines and railways. The policy adds to the unemployment problem and is abandoned on September 26.

January 11, 1940
France, Home Front The government announces that Friday will be a “meatless day” and that no beef, veal, or mutton will be sold on Mondays or Tuesdays.
Finland The Finns beat off attempts to relieve the trapped 168th Division. The Soviets are supplying this force by air. There is a new Soviet attack near Salla. A volunteer Swedish air group begins operations with the Finnish Air Force.

January 11, 1941
Mediterranean Two British cruisers leaving Malta for Gibraltar are attacked by Stukas. Southampton is sunk and Gloucester is damaged.
North Africa The Italian garrison at Murzuk oasis is surprised and captured by a Free French force from Chad under Colonel Leclerc, accompanied by a column from the LRDG.
Germany, Planning Hitler issues Directive 22, outlining his plans for limiting British gains in the Mediterranean. It includes the order establishing the Afrika Korps.

January 11, 1942
East Indies Japanese forces begin their invasion of the Dutch East Indies. They land on the small islands of Tarakan and Minahassa off east Borneo. Attacks by Dutch bombers on the invasion fleet fail. The Japanese plan envisages a three-pronged attack: the landings at Tarakan are from the Central Force which is to take Borneo. The Western Force will advance from Sarawak to land on Sumatra and Java. The Eastern Force is to begin with landings on Celebes and Ambon, before attacking Bali, Timor, and eastern Java.
The Philippines A counterattack in the east of Bataan erases almost all the Japanese gains of the last few days. In the center, the Japanese reach the Orani River.
Pacific The carrier Saratoga is severely damaged by the submarine I-6 near Hawaii. A Japanese submarine shells Pago-Pago, American Samoa.
North Africa South African troops attack Sollum, which has been isolated since the start of Operation Crusader. It falls the following day.
Eastern Front Soviet attacks cut the Rzhev-Bryansk railway.
Diplomatic Relations The US and UK abandon their extraterritorial rights in China.

January 11, 1943
Eastern Front Around Leningrad, a small corridor is opened south of Lake Ladoga by concerted attacks by the Leningrad garrison and Volkhov Front. The corridor is under regular artillery fire, so the siege is still effectively in place.
In the Caucasus, the Russians take Georgievsk, Pyatigorsk, and Mineralnye Vody. Slightly farther north, Kuberle, on the rail line to Proletarskaya, also falls.
Guadalcanal The Americans take the “Sea Horse” position, but Gifu continues to hold out.
American Production Government figures show production in 1942 of 48,000 planes and 56,000 tanks; the US Armed Forces have expanded to 7,000,000 men.

January 11, 1944
Eastern Front There are new Soviet attacks at Mozyr. Hitler refuses to allow any rectification of the front or any strategic withdrawal, clinging to the vain hope of regaining the Dniepr line.
United States, Home Front Roosevelt appeals to Congress for a new national service law to prevent damaging strikes and to mobilize the whole of the adult work force for war work.
New Guinea The Americans at Saidor repair the airfield and make it operational.
Indian Ocean The old cruiser Kuma is torpedoed by HMS Tally-Ho off Penang.

January 11, 1945
Western Front Units of 3rd Army and British XXX Corps link up near St. Hubert as the German salient in the Ardennes is further reduced. III Corps eliminates the last German pocket southeast of Bastogne. To the south the fighting around Bitche is also continuing but the German attacks are now being held.
Norwegian Sea A British squadron attacks a German convoy off southern Norway. Four of the eight vessels in the convoy are sunk.
The Philippines US 25th Division and an armored group are landed at Lingayen. The first serious fighting of the campaign begins. Filipino guerrillas take Aguilar and Santa Barbara ahead of the US advance. There are more Kamikaze attacks, damaging many smaller craft.
Burma British 4th Corps takes Gangaw and pushes on toward the Irrawaddy.
South China Sea US carrier air attacks strike four Japanese convoys off Indochina. 25 ships are sunk and 13 damaged.
Japanese Production The military authorities decide to invest their remaining resources in suicide weapons.

January 11, 1946
Albania Hoxha officially proclaims the Albanian Peoples’ Democratic Republic.

[Ennath]

Originally Posted by dethtongue

The first plan was a conservative reinactment of the Von Schleiffen plan. It failed to really please anyone but it offered the dubious advantages of setting the trench lines in foreign soil and offered the oppurtunity to develop air bases within range of Great Britan. Remember this was before Blitzkreig had really proved itself as a revolutionary form of warefare and everyone was expecting (dreading) a return to the old trench warfare that had permiated the Western Front during WWI.

People like Manstein and Guderian were in the minority at this time, even in Germany. Most of the senior military leadership was quite conservative in its thinking and continued to place emphasis on the infantry, with tanks in a supporting role. Early official appreciations of the Polish campaign actually reinforced this attitude.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by dethtongue

The second plan was created by none other than Erich Von Manstein http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_manstein
who at that time was a relatively insignifigant corps commander (he may even have only been a division commander)...

I think he was an Army Group Chief of Staff at the time. He didn't get a Corps command until later, iirc

[george anson]

Originally Posted by Ennath

People like Manstein and Guderian were in the minority at this time, even in Germany. Most of the senior military leadership was quite conservative in its thinking and continued to place emphasis on the infantry, with tanks in a supporting role. Early official appreciations of the Polish campaign actually reinforced this attitude.

Indeed so. von Kluge was always on Guderian's back asking him not to overextend his lines of supply while Guderian knew exactly the capabilities of his troops and tanks and how to get the best out of them .

He relied on Prussian calculation than intuition like a Rommel. More loved by his panzer troops than by fellow officers whom he often as in his biography Panzer Leader he disparaged.

Our history teacher was an obliging fellow. Used to let me read Panzer Leader in the first year within class.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by george anson

Our history teacher was an obliging fellow. Used to let me read Panzer Leader in the first year within class.

What did you think as a young person of Hitler's plan for a 1.000 tonne tank?

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by palo5

What did you think as a young person of Hitler's plan for a 1.000 tonne tank?

What about the Landkreuzer P 1500 Monster 1,500 tonne tank which was also proposed by Krupp in 1942? It was to have been fitted with an 800mm gun firing a 7 tonne shell, but was cancelled by Speer along with the 1,000 tonne Landkreuzer P. 1000 Ratte in 1943.

[IronMan]

I think WWII is one dead horse that has been beaten more than any other historical event. Hitler keeps the left in business like Satan keeps the right in business.

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by Ennath

People like Manstein and Guderian were in the minority at this time, even in Germany. Most of the senior military leadership was quite conservative in its thinking and continued to place emphasis on the infantry, with tanks in a supporting role. Early official appreciations of the Polish campaign actually reinforced this attitude.

But the German Army had experienced what was effectively Blitzkreig from the British Army in 1918 - coordinated attacks involving infantry, tanks and aircraft.Haig's army had become thoroughly modern and innovative yet between the wars people seemed to ignore what had been achieved.

[Warren G]

This is all so funny...you armchair generals would be lost without Google...