Any Linux users here?

[9876543210]

Have a questions for some of our more advanced Linux users. Have recently noticed a problem that I haven't found an answer for.

First, the basics. Running an older Dell Latitude dual core with four GB RAM, a 120 GB flash drive with Win 7 and Linux Mint 17.2 set up to dual boot. Also have a second 750 GB HD in the slot where the DVD drive is supposed to be. Browser is Firefox with Adblock Plus, NoScript, Ghostery, Better Privacy, Adblock Plus Browser addon and WOT installed. Only other extensions are ForecastFox and ImageHostGrabber.

Now for the problem.

In Linux I've come to this forum and typed in something to a post. Could be several paragraphs long. But when I hit the Post Quick Reply button it goes to a screen saying my post needs to be more than one character long. So the entire post is gone.

This happened a few days ago and then happened again tonight. Just to test I rebooted into Win 7, came back here and was able to make all my posts with no problem. So I'm thinking this must be a Mint 17.2 problem.

Anyone else heard of or experienced this?

[a435843]

Originally Posted by 9876543210

Have a questions for some of our more advanced Linux users. Have recently noticed a problem that I haven't found an answer for.

First, the basics. Running an older Dell Latitude dual core with four GB RAM, a 120 GB flash drive with Win 7 and Linux Mint 17.2 set up to dual boot. Also have a second 750 GB HD in the slot where the DVD drive is supposed to be. Browser is Firefox with Adblock Plus, NoScript, Ghostery, Better Privacy, Adblock Plus Browser addon and WOT installed. Only other extensions are ForecastFox and ImageHostGrabber.

Now for the problem.

In Linux I've come to this forum and typed in something to a post. Could be several paragraphs long. But when I hit the Post Quick Reply button it goes to a screen saying my post needs to be more than one character long. So the entire post is gone.

This happened a few days ago and then happened again tonight. Just to test I rebooted into Win 7, came back here and was able to make all my posts with no problem. So I'm thinking this must be a Mint 17.2 problem.

Anyone else heard of or experienced this?

I don't think this is Linux, the same problem happened to me in Windows 7. Also, I've had other similar posting issues in both OS's, but both in Firefox...if I click into Go Advanced after typing something in the Quick Reply box, the typed text disappears occasionally (usually the text is carried over). On other occasions, from the Advanced editor, if I click Preview Post, the preview is OK, but the text is gone from the box; if I click Submit Reply, it posts, but returns an error saying that I submitted the same post twice. I have to copy and paste the text back into the box, if I wish to do further editing. Linux/Firefox has also given me the same occasional weird behavior, in one of those three combinations, so unless others have the same problem, using a different browser, I suspect it's related to code changes in one of the recent Firefox releases. Given FF is multi-platform, it's not surprising that the same errors crop up in different OS's.

I have similar add-ons to you, but fewer, the only important one in common being ABP, and I don't think that's the issue, as the posting code shouldn't be running into any URL's on any of ABP's black lists. I also have BetterPrivacy, but that only runs on browser launch and exit, so that one can probably be ruled out.

I've had to get into the habit of always copying & pasting what my post is prior to clicking any button (Go Advanced, Post Quick Reply, Submit Reply, or Preview Post), just in case. Maybe try Chromium in Mint and see if you can replicate the problem. I suspect not, as I think it's FF related, as that's the one thing in common in my issues. If I get a chance, I'll try it on Midori/Ubuntu, which has no add-ons, but is also very different from FF (I think it's on a different rendering engine).

I haven't found any big complaints about FF text boxes, other than a couple of complaints about editing in FF boxes on other forums. Given FF's lack of response to fixing old problems in order to create new ones, I'd be shocked if this one got fixed.

[9876543210]

a435843,

Originally Posted by a435843

I don't think this is Linux, the same problem happened to me in Windows 7. Also, I've had other similar posting issues in both OS's, but both in Firefox...if I click into Go Advanced after typing something in the Quick Reply box, the typed text disappears occasionally (usually the text is carried over). On other occasions, from the Advanced editor, if I click Preview Post, the preview is OK, but the text is gone from the box; if I click Submit Reply, it posts, but returns an error saying that I submitted the same post twice. I have to copy and paste the text back into the box, if I wish to do further editing. Linux/Firefox has also given me the same occasional weird behavior, in one of those three combinations, so unless others have the same problem, using a different browser, I suspect it's related to code changes in one of the recent Firefox releases. Given FF is multi-platform, it's not surprising that the same errors crop up in different OS's.

I have similar add-ons to you, but fewer, the only important one in common being ABP, and I don't think that's the issue, as the posting code shouldn't be running into any URL's on any of ABP's black lists. I also have BetterPrivacy, but that only runs on browser launch and exit, so that one can probably be ruled out.

I've had to get into the habit of always copying & pasting what my post is prior to clicking any button (Go Advanced, Post Quick Reply, Submit Reply, or Preview Post), just in case. Maybe try Chromium in Mint and see if you can replicate the problem. I suspect not, as I think it's FF related, as that's the one thing in common in my issues. If I get a chance, I'll try it on Midori/Ubuntu, which has no add-ons, but is also very different from FF (I think it's on a different rendering engine).

I haven't found any big complaints about FF text boxes, other than a couple of complaints about editing in FF boxes on other forums. Given FF's lack of response to fixing old problems in order to create new ones, I'd be shocked if this one got fixed.

I did quite a bit of looking around for an answer to this today and found nothing. I think you're correct in that, unless I can define the problem better, there may be no answer soon.

I've also resorted to copying my most prior to submitting but what a pain. Oh well, continue looking. Haven't used Chrome much but sounds like a good time to give it a try.

Thanks for the info.

[a435843]

Originally Posted by 9876543210

I did quite a bit of looking around for an answer to this today and found nothing. I think you're correct in that, unless I can define the problem better, there may be no answer soon.

I've also resorted to copying my most prior to submitting but what a pain. Oh well, continue looking. Haven't used Chrome much but sounds like a good time to give it a try.

Thanks for the info.

Chromium's a quick install, but if you ever need Flash, it only accepts PepperFlash, which I'm not super familiar with, so I'm hesitant to suggest that one.

sudo apt-get install chromium-browser

For PF, use the first command, and only the second if there's a dependency error:

sudo apt-get install pepperflashplugin-nonfree

sudo dpkg-reconfigure pepperflashplugin-nonfree

There's a lot of nice commands to have in your toolkit, without having to get too deep into commands at the 20 things to do after installing Mint page.

Google has forked Chrome, primarily to include its own version of Adobe Flash, separate from Chromium, and it is also available in Mint. While others may differ, I don't think PepperFlash is as "robust" as Adobe Flash, not because Flash is robust (it certainly isn't), but PepperFlash isn't as well-tested, IMO. However, you have to go to Google's site to download it separately as a Debian installer, as none of the normal Linux repositories are currently carrying it.

[uniw]

Originally Posted by a435843

Your response is heavy on FUD and light on facts. Your average user, who probably deserves more credit than you gave for actually caring about privacy issues, isn't worried about HAL vs. udev. They just say, "hey is there something else I can use on my current hardware, or better yet on my next PC purchase?" And my point is on this thread and on the Windows 10 thread is, yea, Linux can handle a lot of personal computing use cases.

They are worried about HAL vs udev when they are trying to run some random Linux distro on their laptop or desktop PC and the solution to getting a piece of hardware to run seamlessly as it does in Windows relies on their ability to deal with HAL or udev. You can keep making excuses for this uncoordinated mess that has become of the Linux desktop, but this is just a fact, pure and simple, that people don't care for complicated solutions to their problems when all they want to do is to take advantage of the hardware that they paid good money for. $100 more for an OS that lets them do that is therefore a no-brainer choice. The failure for the Linux community in general to notice this has caused the demise of Linux on the desktop front.

Video editing is a cherry-picked example; there aren't a lot of great choices on the Windows side either, unless you want to pay rent to Adobe, and it's takes a huge development effort to put together something better than some dumb editor built into YouTube. Corel makes a decent middle-range product; it's not Avid, but it can do some non-trivial tasks, and will probably be my last Windows-only hold out. As many people have said on tech forums, they foresee a future for a lot home power-users of using MacOS or Linux for most day-to-day tasks and possibly gaming, while relegating some one-off Windows software, like Photoshop, to a dual boot, virtual, or Wine environment. That would be a slap in the face to MS, no matter how you spin it.

I bought Sony's Movie Studio Platinum 13 over Steam for less than 60 usd. It's better than anything freely available on Linux for your average user. Easy to learn, stable, tons of features. On Linux, you have to really invest your time in Blender (which is excellent for power users) to have a good video editor or settle for one of the incomplete and truly basic ones like Pitivi or Openshot.

Also, the purpose of using FOSS cross-platform software is as a gateway to leaving Windows behind. It's so a user doesn't have to try to make the transition all at once. You have to remember that, historically, Windows is just a gateway to their real cash cow, Office. Once a user is off of Office, what do they need Windows for?

I haven't paid for Office in a long time, I use Libre Office and used to use Open Office. They both work perfectly well under Windows, just like Emacs and org-mode, another favorite software of mine.

What power users don't ever realize, and I'm guilty of this too, is that people just want to do a certain set of things with their computer, and they really, really don't care about the OS. That's the real reason behind the success of mobile technology; it's not because it's mobile, but it's because they can do their e-mail, Facebooking, and Twittering without dealing with Windows, which, among the general public in the US, has about as good a reputation as FOSS does with you.

Those mobile user sheep don't have a problem with privacy. But Microsoft badly misunderstood the desktop user community, which is completely different, and that community cares deeply about privacy. Honestly, if mobile, low-information, low-skill users were given something better in a viable mass market product, I think they would go for it in droves...it's Silicon Valley that sucks, not the users.

I have to disagree with you on the issue of privacy. The vocal minority might voice their concerns over privacy loudly which might give the impression that the desktop community at large is concerned about it but your average student, teacher, gamer, secretary isn't. You're right about convenience, though. People want convenience over anything when it comes to technology, the same goes for developers. I recall Linus Torvalds himself complaining about the Gnome 3 interface and how it forced a learning curve on him that he didn't appreciate and that guy is the definitive power user on the Linux platform. Why can't you admit that Linux developer and user community failed to see eye to eye when it comes to developing apps that functioned as convenient tools for the end-user?

For someone who prefers a desktop form factor, because they may do something else, like word processing, show them LibreOffice Writer (and hopefully they can continue to make strides in catching up to Office, and continue to improve import/export, as they've have in version 5) and show them where to click to open Firefox, and they'll say, "this is a weird looking Windows, but it works." That's what people really don't care about, the inner workings of the operating system they're using or what OS they're using...they just want the thing to work, and bonus points if their entire life history isn't forwarded to the N$@.

Once again, you're technically correct but fall short in your analysis. Microsoft realized that they, by forcing Windows 8 on desktop users to lure them into their tablets by way of familiarity with the interface, were pissing off paying customers and they remedied their mistake by giving Windows 10 for free to all 7 and 8 users that fixed most of these mistakes while retaining and even adding functionality.

Ultimately, as an anti-forking zealot, you're arguing points of some small-picture FOSS dispute, and I'm talking about the big-picture of what average users, from beginners to power users, really want, why Microsoft has failed in that respect, and where the industry and the market needs to go if we're to continue to have a vibrant desktop computing environment. I don't want to use tablets and mobile phones the rest of my life.

It's not a small-picture issue. Imagine there were nine different forks of MS Office and each of them, depending on the version of Windows you used, either worked one way or worked another way, provided some basic functionality or didn't provide some basic functionality. The end result would be chaotic, forcing people and corporations into investing a lot more into their learning curve, support would cost more, causing all kinds of incompatibility issues etc. This is Linux desktop in 2015, in a nutshell. There is no unified way of doing things, there is no short list of go-to software for many tasks, such as but not limited to video editing. There isn't even a unifying graphical interface. I won't repeat the lack of a framework like .Net or advanced integrated developer tools like Xcode.

The Linux desktop hasn't failed, because it continues to exist. When I don't want to deal with MS's telemetry, or failed applications, I've got somewhere to go, on both platforms. That freedom is powerful enough; I have the option to move 90% of my personal computing away from MS...that's a success, not a failure. At the end of the day, I don't care about minor FOSS forking arguments or how many angels can fit on the end of a pin...if someone, like a client asks, "I just need to set up a touch-screen browser for a retail floor kiosk, do I really need Windows 10 Pro?", I can say, "No, you have an alternative." That's all I care about.

You are but one person. Millions of others refrain from exercising that freedom or are incapable of doing so because Linux on the desktop has failed to provide them with the ease of use and convenience of Microsoft products. This failure results in Linux desktop adaptation to trail even OS X, and that is saying something since Apple products are usually much more expensive hence difficult to afford. In fact, by existing as the leading FOSS alternative, with the fragmented development structure it has created, Linux on the desktop may have stood in the way and prevented adoption of other alternatives which could have gone a further way with a sound leadership that has clear goals for the future instead of the "I like this, let's try this shall we and see if it turns out good, to hell with what people say they want" approach of the Linux community as displayed in Unity, Gnome 3 etc.

Also, I'm not sure what "shiny" Android IDE you talking about is; most development on that platform is in Java, which equals Oracle, not Google. Objective C is such an abomination that Apple is pushing a simplified Swift, though I haven't looked into that yet. And, as you apparently ignored it when I said it previously, but Visual Studio is a dead product. So your desktop, shiny IDE, or whatever you were saying was a total non-sequitur.

Android Studio, ever heard of it?

Do you even work in tech? Have you tried to find a development job recently, and found out what skills are in demand? It's not Visual Studio, sir. That's why MS is dying for developers again, since most of the jobs are, first, in server-side Java, second, front-end apps in Java (Objective C is way down the list), a close third, C & C++ Linux/Unix system and server-side development, and fourth, a spread of JavaScript, PHP, Python. & C# (MS's .NET entry). Everything else is niche and there's no critical mass of hiring in those technologies to even bother to learn them, your "shiny" IDE's included. Every language survey taken in the last five years supports this.

Yes, I did and I do. Apparently, more importantly and clearly you have failed to understand a word of what I wrote so let me make it painfully clear so you can't shift goalposts like you tried to do above.

We're not discussing skills that are required for a developer to be hired by some corporation. We're discussing tools that will get a developer or a bunch of developers with a good idea off the ground and allow them to develop software for a particular platform, which in turn attracts software developers to that platform which in turn allows there to be more quality software for that platform which in turn attracts more users to that platform. If you're suggesting in any way Linux compares with Google, Microsoft or Apple products in this regard, you're beyond help as far as I'm concerned.

Just as a side note, why do you think these expensive to develop and maintain developer tools (IDEs, Frameworks, SDKs) exist in the first place? I mean, do you really think Apple and Microsoft are just looking at projects to throw money at?

Frankly, I don't care that much about the low-level details of what goes on in the FOSS world, as long as I've got something decent on the back-end to use; I simply don't share in your obsession with how they've "failed" you. And for crying out loud, IBM is old news, Microsoft just out-FUDed them. Linux runs just fine on more hardware than OS/2 ever did; if it weren't for nVidia, MS fan boys wouldn't have any argument here at all.

Yeah, old news or not, the OS/2 story is relevant to the software world today as the rules of the game hasn't changed. People want quality software, they get quality software from quality developers with the right tools.

It's interesting that you also chose not to argue my point that MS development is going nowhere fast, that no app developer in their right mind is going to spend $1 on Windows 10 app development, unless MS if paying for it, which would be a massive waste of money. That means that Windows 10 and MS is going nowhere fast.

As a result of Microsoft's insistence on backwards compatibility, many software written for Windows 8.1 (including Metro apps, drivers) work flawlessly with Windows 10. There really is no need for releasing new software for Windows 10 unless there is a significant change in features provided.

[a435843]

Originally Posted by uniw

They are worried about HAL vs udev when they are trying to run some random Linux distro on their laptop or desktop PC and the solution to getting a piece of hardware to run seamlessly as it does in Windows relies on their ability to deal with HAL or udev. You can keep making excuses for this uncoordinated mess that has become of the Linux desktop, but this is just a fact, pure and simple, that people don't care for complicated solutions to their problems when all they want to do is to take advantage of the hardware that they paid good money for. $100 more for an OS that lets them do that is therefore a no-brainer choice. The failure for the Linux community in general to notice this has caused the demise of Linux on the desktop front.

Well, apparently you haven't installed Linux for low-end users, who are just fine with Ubuntu & Mint, depending on the situation. That's the difference between you & me; you get caught up in technical arguments, and I go out, find out what a client or an end-user (as I do some IT work for a local charity) really needs, and find them the lowest-cost solution. In some cases, like higher-end printers and databases, Windows or Windows Server is required. For the receptionist's desk, Mint lets them slap together a quick flyer or play free Solitaire when it's slow. It's about reusing hardware they already have, not paying for new. The PC market has cratered, because people aren't going out and paying for new hardware every two years, so in today's economic environment, your argument is out-of-date. I'm sure things in the ivory tower are still great for you, but down here in the trenches, life's different.

Originally Posted by uniw

I bought Sony's Movie Studio Platinum 13 over Steam for less than 60 usd. It's better than anything freely available on Linux for your average user. Easy to learn, stable, tons of features. On Linux, you have to really invest your time in Blender (which is excellent for power users) to have a good video editor or settle for one of the incomplete and truly basic ones like Pitivi or Openshot.

Well, good for you. Video editing seems to be a very personal choice and a complicating factor in deciding what OS to use. Since the vast majority of users don't use this type of software, this usually doesn't come up as an important factor in what OS to use. I use Corel, that's what I'm used to, and that's why I'll have to keep Windows 7 running for the foreseeable future, as a secondary option, on a dedicated machine. Relegating Windows to a deprecated status is not going to get MS out of the hole they're in.

Originally Posted by uniw

I haven't paid for Office in a long time, I use Libre Office and used to use Open Office. They both work perfectly well under Windows, just like Emacs and org-mode, another favorite software of mine.

I wish there were a slow-clap smiley that I could find quickly.

Originally Posted by uniw

I have to disagree with you on the issue of privacy. The vocal minority might voice their concerns over privacy loudly which might give the impression that the desktop community at large is concerned about it but your average student, teacher, gamer, secretary isn't. You're right about convenience, though. People want convenience over anything when it comes to technology, the same goes for developers. I recall Linus Torvalds himself complaining about the Gnome 3 interface and how it forced a learning curve on him that he didn't appreciate and that guy is the definitive power user on the Linux platform. Why can't you admit that Linux developer and user community failed to see eye to eye when it comes to developing apps that functioned as convenient tools for the end-user?

I don't care what Torvalds does; he's an obnoxious buffoon that doesn't put out anything anymore that I can use or that my clients can use, so it doesn't matter to me. To me, there's one important factor, and one only, can I use it to solve a problem, while creating as few new ones as possible, then proceed accordingly.

Go to my recent post from an Ars Technica posting's comment section, to get an idea of mine and other problems with privacy. As you are clearly a MS fanboy in sheep's clothing, let me tell you something about Windows 10, not only am I tired of your you're-in-the-minority bullshit, but let me ask you...how's Windows 10 going? Installations have clearly stopped, MS is cramming the download down users' throats, when they don't want them, and the privacy situation is making a difference. When you get into a debate with the customer, you've lost the sale.

Just because you're in the minority (for now) doesn't make it right. This is a civil rights issue, and blacks, and women, and gays, and other groups fought for their Constitutional rights when "The Majority" didn't care, but they fought and got their rights. My Fourth Amendment rights are just as important to me, and your dismissal only makes me want to fight harder. Keep whining about us at your own peril, you just might make Madame Defarge's list.

Originally Posted by uniw

Once again, you're technically correct but fall short in your analysis. Microsoft realized that they, by forcing Windows 8 on desktop users to lure them into their tablets by way of familiarity with the interface, were pissing off paying customers and they remedied their mistake by giving Windows 10 for free to all 7 and 8 users that fixed most of these mistakes while retaining and even adding functionality.

What added functionality? What mistakes, exactly, have been fixed? Spreading out settings all over the place so users can't find them? That's progress?

MS has made it clear that they're trying to court app developers, so they're still trying, in vain with Windows 10, to dumb down the whole OS for apps. Windows 10, in this respect, is just Windows 8 with a Start Menu. The product still forces underpowered apps, as defaults, onto users, and there have been many complaints from users trying to find and install full-featured applications. People like you will say that desktop users will want crap apps, probably with your last breath.

Originally Posted by uniw

It's not a small-picture issue. Imagine there were nine different forks of MS Office and each of them, depending on the version of Windows you used, either worked one way or worked another way, provided some basic functionality or didn't provide some basic functionality. The end result would be chaotic, forcing people and corporations into investing a lot more into their learning curve, support would cost more, causing all kinds of incompatibility issues etc. This is Linux desktop in 2015, in a nutshell. There is no unified way of doing things, there is no short list of go-to software for many tasks, such as but not limited to video editing. There isn't even a unifying graphical interface. I won't repeat the lack of a framework like .Net or advanced integrated developer tools like Xcode.

You don't get it, I analyze the use case, and install the appropriate product, using the appropriate forked OS, as required. The dev process means nothing to me. There is a short list of software for most people's uses, just saying that there isn't doesn't make it true. What is your definition of "many tasks"? Video editing isn't on most people's list. For most people, it's a decent web browser, a glorified text-editor, a couple lousy games, and an MP3 player. If it's more, then yes, more is required, as I said above.

While it would be nice to have some continuity in product lines, you're not going to get that without a monolithic corporation making pronouncements from your ivory tower. I'd rather deal with a little uncertainty than ask how high every time Microsoft says to jump.

MS changes its UI in every version nowadays, so how is that different from Linux? People know it's going to change whether they "upgrade" Windows or move to something different. I agree that's unfortunate, but it's the case on every platform now.

Originally Posted by uniw

You are but one person. Millions of others refrain from exercising that freedom or are incapable of doing so because Linux on the desktop has failed to provide them with the ease of use and convenience of Microsoft products. This failure results in Linux desktop adaptation to trail even OS X, and that is saying something since Apple products are usually much more expensive hence difficult to afford. In fact, by existing as the leading FOSS alternative, with the fragmented development structure it has created, Linux on the desktop may have stood in the way and prevented adoption of other alternatives which could have gone a further way with a sound leadership that has clear goals for the future instead of the "I like this, let's try this shall we and see if it turns out good, to hell with what people say they want" approach of the Linux community as displayed in Unity, Gnome 3 etc.

Most people don't know Linux exists...they don't have the marketing budget for MS, so to say millions have tried it and don't like it is a flat-out lie. MS also has the balls of the PC makers, making it so they are limited in the options they can provide. Remember the "netbook" back in 2008, as that was considered a separate product line, PC makers shipped them with Linux. These machines were so popular, it forced MS to bring XP out of mothballs and the PC companies to install it, rather than Vista, or Ubuntu.

Also, it means that a well-informed user has to intervene and tell them there's an option. And people do hate to install an OS, for good reason, whether it's MS (which is why they're pushing so hard right now) or someone else. But most users I've dealt with, they're happy to have a secure OS without worrying about MS anymore. Many of them had moved what they do on a PC to a phone or tablet, because it was a non-MS product.

Originally Posted by uniw

Android Studio, ever heard of it?

Yes, I prefer the name "Eclipse", but a couple of extra features specific to Android doesn't make it a customized product for that platform.

Originally Posted by uniw

Yes, I did and I do. Apparently, more importantly and clearly you have failed to understand a word of what I wrote so let me make it painfully clear so you can't shift goalposts like you tried to do above.

We're not discussing skills that are required for a developer to be hired by some corporation. We're discussing tools that will get a developer or a bunch of developers with a good idea off the ground and allow them to develop software for a particular platform, which in turn attracts software developers to that platform which in turn allows there to be more quality software for that platform which in turn attracts more users to that platform. If you're suggesting in any way Linux compares with Google, Microsoft or Apple products in this regard, you're beyond help as far as I'm concerned.

Just as a side note, why do you think these expensive to develop and maintain developer tools (IDEs, Frameworks, SDKs) exist in the first place? I mean, do you really think Apple and Microsoft are just looking at projects to throw money at?

Yeah, old news or not, the OS/2 story is relevant to the software world today as the rules of the game hasn't changed. People want quality software, they get quality software from quality developers with the right tools.

As a result of Microsoft's insistence on backwards compatibility, many software written for Windows 8.1 (including Metro apps, drivers) work flawlessly with Windows 10. There really is no need for releasing new software for Windows 10 unless there is a significant change in features provided.

Since you have trouble with the language, Mr. Pah-tel, developer tools exist to lock in developers into a platform, so if a product is written using Swift or Visual Studio, then that developer cannot port their product to another platform.

I know you think you're way smarter than me, but you're sadly mistaken. Every developer, since there's no concept of true cross-platform development, has to ask, for which platform do I develop, assuming they're not working for a company with a predefined infrastructure. And app development is a tough business, something I wouldn't curse on my worst enemy...you might be an exception.

Right now, they look at who buys apps, which are iOS dolts with more money than sense, and to whom can ads be crammed, and that's Android cheapskates, but that has 83% mobile market share. Win32 development, as I said previously, is dead, outside of a few companies like Adobe. MS's hope is to shred privacy concerns on the desktop so that developers can put out spam apps that "target" users with ads, that's it. Also, MS wants to cram some Bing ads down people's throats...that's the purpose of Windows 10, smart guy.

Since ultimately, you're not doing anything important, cheer for Microsoft all day; it doesn't matter. Since I'm out here actually doing something, I'll just install whatever OS is important, and if that f***s Microsoft, then I've had a good day.

[uniw]

Originally Posted by a435843

Well, apparently you haven't installed Linux for low-end users, who are just fine with Ubuntu & Mint, depending on the situation. That's the difference between you & me; you get caught up in technical arguments, and I go out, find out what a client or an end-user (as I do some IT work for a local charity) really needs, and find them the lowest-cost solution.

It could be so, but even the slightest desire to configure something differently will take its toll on the end user after you set the system up initially. A recent example of this is ssd encryption and trim. The so-called right way to do this on Ubuntu and Mint has changed so much that if they had an ssd drive and wanted trim, they would've had to jump through some hoops such as updating their kernel version and configuring a bunch of config files. Windows 7 has had this feature built in from the start, requiring no effort from the end user. Why? Because it's a desktop consumer oriented operating system first and second, and they have to listen to their customers to make money. This incentive is lost on many Linux developers who work for large corporations which in turn provide services for other large corporations. Linux as a desktop OS is not quite marketable to the masses of individuals and it shows in details such as this.

In some cases, like higher-end printers and databases, Windows or Windows Server is required. For the receptionist's desk, Mint lets them slap together a quick flyer or play free Solitaire when it's slow. It's about reusing hardware they already have, not paying for new. The PC market has cratered, because people aren't going out and paying for new hardware every two years, so in today's economic environment, your argument is out-of-date. I'm sure things in the ivory tower are still great for you, but down here in the trenches, life's different.

People are buying hardware, just not desktop or laptop systems. They're buying tablets and smartphones. It's not purely a matter of economics, it's a matter of choice as well.

Well, good for you. Video editing seems to be a very personal choice and a complicating factor in deciding what OS to use. Since the vast majority of users don't use this type of software, this usually doesn't come up as an important factor in what OS to use. I use Corel, that's what I'm used to, and that's why I'll have to keep Windows 7 running for the foreseeable future, as a secondary option, on a dedicated machine. Relegating Windows to a deprecated status is not going to get MS out of the hole they're in.

Vast majority of users use some type of software that drives their need for a computer. Gaming, image editing, multimedia... You can bet that there is a better software package available for Windows than Linux, even if it's provided for free, because the user base is much bigger and developers will target that before they target Linux users.

I don't care what Torvalds does; he's an obnoxious buffoon that doesn't put out anything anymore that I can use or that my clients can use, so it doesn't matter to me. To me, there's one important factor, and one only, can I use it to solve a problem, while creating as few new ones as possible, then proceed accordingly.

He's still in charge of Linux kernel development and decides what gets in and what gets out and how things are to be done.

Go to my recent post from an Ars Technica posting's comment section, to get an idea of mine and other problems with privacy. As you are clearly a MS fanboy in sheep's clothing, let me tell you something about Windows 10, not only am I tired of your you're-in-the-minority bullshit, but let me ask you...how's Windows 10 going? Installations have clearly stopped, MS is cramming the download down users' throats, when they don't want them, and the privacy situation is making a difference. When you get into a debate with the customer, you've lost the sale.

Adoption rate has slowed down but it's still faster than Windows 8 and almost as fast as Windows 7 and that was a huge step away from the Vista disaster. As more DX12 titles emerge, I expect the rate to increase with gamers jumping on board. Also, to simply accuse people of being fanboys for disagreeing with your opinion is pathetic. I'm not defending Microsoft's policy regarding privacy, I'm just stating that they are able to do so well despite these issues because they, as a company have gotten the formula right for so long, in terms of attracting users and developers while Linux community was stuck in their stubbornness and defensiveness, as you displayed so eloquently above.

Just because you're in the minority (for now) doesn't make it right. This is a civil rights issue, and blacks, and women, and gays, and other groups fought for their Constitutional rights when "The Majority" didn't care, but they fought and got their rights. My Fourth Amendment rights are just as important to me, and your dismissal only makes me want to fight harder. Keep whining about us at your own peril, you just might make Madame Defarge's list.

I'd hate to inform you of the fact that you're fighting windmills guarded by strawmen. Linux has been on the desktop for almost 25 years and the market share is below 2 percent while Windows 10 is just released and has over 5 percent market share. Not everyone who understands these issues and yet still chooses a Microsoft product is evil and out to take your rights away. Maybe it's time Linux zealots like you realize the fault might lie with the Linux development model and lack of guiding leadership with an insight into the desires of desktop users.

What added functionality? What mistakes, exactly, have been fixed? Spreading out settings all over the place so users can't find them? That's progress?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/28744...out-first.html

http://www.techradar.com/news/softwa...ows-10-1267365

Actually most settings that will be used by users are accessed from the tray. The few that aren't are simply a right-click on start button away from them.

MS has made it clear that they're trying to court app developers, so they're still trying, in vain with Windows 10, to dumb down the whole OS for apps. Windows 10, in this respect, is just Windows 8 with a Start Menu. The product still forces underpowered apps, as defaults, onto users, and there have been many complaints from users trying to find and install full-featured applications. People like you will say that desktop users will want crap apps, probably with your last breath.

Again, market share adoption figures disagree with your sentiments. Most people are pleased with Windows 10 as there is a fast shift from 8 and 7 users to Windows 10.

You don't get it, I analyze the use case, and install the appropriate product, using the appropriate forked OS, as required. The dev process means nothing to me. There is a short list of software for most people's uses, just saying that there isn't doesn't make it true. What is your definition of "many tasks"? Video editing isn't on most people's list. For most people, it's a decent web browser, a glorified text-editor, a couple lousy games, and an MP3 player. If it's more, then yes, more is required, as I said above.

Well, it's so nice for some people to have to depend on you to hold their hand. Unfortunately for you and Linux community, 99% of the market wants a product that they know will do the job without having to go out and look for the right distro to do the job and spend a lot of effort learning it.

While it would be nice to have some continuity in product lines, you're not going to get that without a monolithic corporation making pronouncements from your ivory tower. I'd rather deal with a little uncertainty than ask how high every time Microsoft says to jump.

Good for you, you're free not to use a Microsoft product as others are free to use them. A certain amount of centralization and control has proven to be better. FSF has done this in their early years, when RMS was actively working on the projects, creating powerful tools for advanced developers to work on Linux kernel development. They also laid the legal framework with copyleft etc. Torvalds has been in charge of Linux kernel development for so long and corporations like Red Hat were central in getting Linux up and running as a result and making it very successful in servers, routers etc. Overall, the billions of dollars spent cumulatively developing the system has yielded more profits in return so this continues to be the case.
However, a similar concentrated and organized effort never came for desktop use, resulting in a poor, underperforming, insufficient desktop OS that can only be defended by zealots.

MS changes its UI in every version nowadays, so how is that different from Linux? People know it's going to change whether they "upgrade" Windows or move to something different. I agree that's unfortunate, but it's the case on every platform now.

Actually from Windows XP days to Windows 10, the only time there was such a drastic change was with 8, and as I mentioned it before it was realized and fixed with Windows 10 - a free upgrade.

Most people don't know Linux exists...they don't have the marketing budget for MS, so to say millions have tried it and don't like it is a flat-out lie. MS also has the balls of the PC makers, making it so they are limited in the options they can provide. Remember the "netbook" back in 2008, as that was considered a separate product line, PC makers shipped them with Linux. These machines were so popular, it forced MS to bring XP out of mothballs and the PC companies to install it, rather than Vista, or Ubuntu.

Seriously, is it all a big conspiracy to you? If Linux was the holy grail of desktop OS's like you want to make it out to be, don't you think 25 years on the market would have gotten it recognition by now, especially after the success they had with servers? Minecraft has had even less resources than Linux, how did that become such a success story? Because it sufficiently fulfilled its purpose of entertaining people so that it became a mainstream hit with little to no marketing budget.

Netbooks were replaced with tablets, no reason for you to draw up another Microsoft conspiracy. Tablets that ran with Android or iOS, two centrally controlled and developed, purpose driven operating systems.

Also, it means that a well-informed user has to intervene and tell them there's an option. And people do hate to install an OS, for good reason, whether it's MS (which is why they're pushing so hard right now) or someone else. But most users I've dealt with, they're happy to have a secure OS without worrying about MS anymore. Many of them had moved what they do on a PC to a phone or tablet, because it was a non-MS product.

Those people are a tiny minority.

Yes, I prefer the name "Eclipse", but a couple of extra features specific to Android doesn't make it a customized product for that platform.

Integrating well with their SDK is not just a couple of extra features.

Since you have trouble with the language, Mr. Pah-tel, developer tools exist to lock in developers into a platform, so if a product is written using Swift or Visual Studio, then that developer cannot port their product to another platform.

No, it will take more effort but they still can. It's no worse than dealing with crude development tools that take more time.

I know you think you're way smarter than me, but you're sadly mistaken. Every developer, since there's no concept of true cross-platform development, has to ask, for which platform do I develop, assuming they're not working for a company with a predefined infrastructure. And app development is a tough business, something I wouldn't curse on my worst enemy...you might be an exception.

Oh the sophistry backed up by semantics. What defines "True" in your head is not relevant to this discussion. The fact of the matter is there are tons of tools out there for popular platforms which help with porting of apps to other popular platforms. You know why? Because there is a demand for it. Back to basics... Virtuous and vicious cycles of development.

Right now, they look at who buys apps, which are iOS dolts with more money than sense, and to whom can ads be crammed, and that's Android cheapskates, but that has 83% mobile market share. Win32 development, as I said previously, is dead, outside of a few companies like Adobe. MS's hope is to shred privacy concerns on the desktop so that developers can put out spam apps that "target" users with ads, that's it. Also, MS wants to cram some Bing ads down people's throats...that's the purpose of Windows 10, smart guy.

I'm glad you got it all figured out...

Since ultimately, you're not doing anything important, cheer for Microsoft all day; it doesn't matter. Since I'm out here actually doing something, I'll just install whatever OS is important, and if that f***s Microsoft, then I've had a good day.

Topping it off with delusions of self-grandeur, how fitting.

[sol14]

I'm using manjaro linux.

it works for me out of the box, no problem. Based on Arch with the most collection of programs. I'm in here doing everything, playing all movies, diashows, dropbox, hangout etc. and I don't have any problems.......you shure know what I'm doing really in here

I have a Dell XPS and a Toshiba

[solarbear]

mint 18 mate user here, palemoon ihg with firejail activated and noscript.

still haven't found image editing as smooth as it was in XP. e.g. massive 8 mb scan, double click for entire view, open in paint, shrink down to 33% save and viola, now it is a .3 mb file ready for archiving. tried pinta, gimp xpaint etc. no smoothie for me

[ynsimm]

I've just switched to Mint 18.1 (64-bit), and while using FireFox, I encountered the same problem as described in post #41: my post text just disappears completely when I try to send the message. Besides that, the message format buttons simply don´t work.

So I installed and tried Chromium. The format buttons still don´t work, but as you can see, placing a text only message works.

Interestingly while using FF, before trying to place a post, I did a pm reply - which strangely worked well.

BTW My reason for trying Mint: I used an old PC running XP for VEF alone, and suddenly the message and post send buttons did not work anymore... :lol: