Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[haroldeye]

Really 69, such vitriol from a man who is so full of Brotherly love. I'm so surprised!

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Really 69, such vitriol from a man who is so full of Brotherly love. I'm so surprised!

Your utopias surely are as contradictory as mine.
Don't see any offense here... I put some animation on this forum.
I do not dislike when you are mocking of my utopias.

You can mock Switzerland if you want, I'd not take any offense, but fighting with words to contradict you, if I find any good opportunity.

Originally Posted by Wendigo

No

You stick to building your imaginary marxist utopian constitution

Switzerland or several American states... marxists ? Where did you read that!

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

The correct line of action would have been not to call a referendum and not to run an election campaign based on promising to hold the referendum. Mr Cameron is a real life sorcerer's apprentice. He had no reason to call a referendum - no new thing had arisen. He called the referendum for internal Tory Party reasons which had nothing to do with the national interest.

I think I referred to Brexit earlier as a "match comprised of own goals" -- and surely this is the most egregious of them, a golden goal in the "Euro Own Goal Cup" - sponsored by Nordstream, Trump Steaks, and Ping An Insurance Company.

It is political malpractice; and to add a touch of black comedy, after the failure of this foolish bit of political stagecraft, Teresa May then went to the country for a mandate and barely kept a majority. Because hey, why stop when you've got a bad thing going?

Democracies are endangered when the folks running them are such poor judges of their mechanics.

So Britain's a few goals down on their wrong way kicks, but Brits can't claim victory yet, as there's a very competitive Euro side that's not conceding. Angela Merkel and judges in Strasbourg have taken the measure of the European keeper, Gimpy Esperanto, and have him wrong footed every time.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

No

You stick to building your imaginary marxist utopian constitution

Originally Posted by xyzde69

Switzerland or several American states... marxists ? Where did you read that!

Where did I refer to Switzerland or the USA exactly You need to put more tonic in your gin

I was just taking the piss out of this load of old tripe you kept posting in the "Communism, it's good and you will all agree or we'll shoot you" thread"

http://vintage-erotica-forum.com/sho...postcount=2219

The mind is still boggling, that's why you'd love the EU, if in doubt re-write the membership rules

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Before we joined the EEC we were a sovereign country making our own decisions, that was taken away from us without us having any say in the matter.

Hehehe! You mean you didn't have a referendum with an overwhelming majority of 68%, your elected governments didn't agree to all the following treaties, and you weren't represented in the EU Council, ECJ or EU Parliament? You didn't have a veto, a big rebate and numerous opt-outs either?

You had all that, and you know it. "No say in the matter" indeed. You agreed to all of it

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by palo5

Hehehe! You mean you didn't have a referendum with an overwhelming majority of 68%, your elected governments didn't agree to all the following treaties, and you weren't represented in the EU Council, ECJ or EU Parliament? You didn't have a veto, a big rebate and numerous opt-outs either?

You had all that, and you know it. "No say in the matter" indeed. You agreed to all of it

As a Russian you are more used to re-writing history so one more time let's explain to all of you who are not able to grasp the simple timelines

January 1973 Ted Heath the Conservative PM signed us into the EEC
1975 a referendum on remaining was held by Labour in which HMG confirmed we were joining a European trading area, they denied that there were any plans to form a political and economic union
Years later and Heath and others admit they withheld information about future European integration plans from the British public.

1987 Single European Act
1992 Maastricht and the EU emerges

Events after that took us deeper into the EU, Euro scepticism began to rise and that led to the eventual formation of UKIP

Say what you want but I'll ignore most of it, all UK political parties were largely pro EU so the ONLY times the British public had a real say on the EU was in the European elections where we regularly voted for anti-EU candidates.
That alone should have been a massive red flag to dickhead Cameron that there was a very good chance the public, especially those of us who have lived through the whole of our membership of the EEC/EU would grasp that opportunity.

Our Governments may have agreed to lots of things over the years but they were not representing British public opinion, the first chance the British public had to vote on remaining in the EU or leaving and we chose to leave.

You cannot change those simple facts.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

The problem with the European Constitution is that the nature of the contemplated integration is a moving target, the "ever closer Union", whose terms are not so much negotiated by sovereigns, but dictated by bureaucracies and Courts

That's misleading. Actually, laws are agreed among sovereign states, ratified by the EU Parliament, and then set into law by the states. The EU Court has no function and no initiative, unless a member state is accused of breaking or not applying the law and the Court accepts the case. The bureaucracies (regulators) may identify transgressions, but they can't dictate any final decision in the way the Court can. That is reality

The term "ever closer union" comes from the original Treaty of Rome from the 1950's, and every Member State has agreed to it at some stage in its history. If they hadn't they wouldn't be Members

Significant numbers of UKers object to it because they know little about European history. They have no experience of invasion & occupation by foreign powers, and how miserable war at its worst can be. They think they can stand alone. But Europeans most certainly have experience and know that co-operation is better, above all because it means we won't fight with each other anymore

The EU sees the big picture, if you follow me. "Ever closer union" means continuing better co-operation, and never war again. And it's true -- we must never ever make war with each other again

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Our Governments may have agreed to lots of things over the years but they were not representing British public opinion

Of course they weren't. You have an unrepresentative Parliament, elected by FPTP where half the votes don't count. How could could they represent you with a system like that? However, as you point out yourself, British voters want an unrepresentative Parliament and had a referendum on it, so what did you expect? It's what you wanted, isn't it

So easy to see from the outside, you know. Probably murderous intrigue & throttling injustice from the inside. No wonder some feel bitter. You know what I mean, my friend

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by palo5

Of course they weren't. You have an unrepresentative Parliament, elected by FPTP where half the votes don't count. How could it be otherwise? However, as you point out yourself, British voters want an unrepresentative Parliament and had a referendum on it, so what do you expect? It's what you want, isn't it

So easy to see from the outside, you know. Probably murderous intrigue & throttling injustice from the inside. You know what I mean, my friend

You can slice it and dice it anyway you want old chap, the plain fact is that we had a one-off chance to have a say on our future, we took it and we voted to leave, both main parties say they respect the referendum result.
The Lib Dems are a joke so no one other than their natural supporters really gives a toss what they say.
It's in the hands of our Parliament now as to how the exit is actually delivered.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

That's misleading. Actually, laws are agreed among sovereign states, ratified by the EU Parliament, and then set into law by the states. The EU Court has no function and no initiative, unless a member state is accused of breaking or not applying the law and the Court accepts the case. The bureaucracies (regulators) may identify transgressions, but they can't dictate any final decision in the way the Court can. That is reality

Palo, old chap, you are having a giraffe.

When we had our original referendum in 1975 we were assured that our sovereignty was absolutely safe because nothing could change without the approval of Parliament. But they who were supposed to be the watchdog are in fact the burglar's dog, conniving at and assisting the theft of our national self-determination. I would rather trust the Gay Daleks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3pHvH8sPT4

Originally Posted by palo5

The term "ever closer union" comes from the original Treaty of Rome from the 1950's, and every Member State has agreed to it at some stage in its history. If they hadn't they wouldn't be Members

This information was not divulged by HMG during the 1975 referendum. We have learned it since then and the change in levels of support for EU membership since 1975 reflects our inside knowledge from 43 years of being a member nation.

Originally Posted by palo5

Significant numbers of UKers object to it because they know little about European history. They have no experience of invasion & occupation by foreign powers, and how miserable war at its worst can be. They think they can stand alone. But Europeans most certainly have experience and know that co-operation is better, above all because it means we won't fight with each other anymore

I wish all other EU member states luck, of course.

Originally Posted by palo5

The EU sees the big picture, if you follow me. "Ever closer union" means continuing better co-operation, and never war again. And it's true -- we must never ever make war with each other again

I don't give the EU this credit for our relatively peaceful experience since WW2. I think it was due to the balance of fear in the Cold War. Since then, Europe has been a lot less peaceful.