The Second World War. - Page 827

**scoundrel** · July 13th, 2018, 05:36 AM

In 1939 the Polish city of Lwow (which is now Lviv and located in Ukraine) had a large Jewish community, over 150,000 people. This grew to over 200,000 as Jews moved eastwards in 1939 to the relative safety of Russian-occupied Poland and away from the Nazis. But of course the Nazis captured Lwow early on in June 1941.

There was bad blood between the predominately Ukrainian majority population and the Jewish community in Lwow going back centuries. Lwow had previously been called Lemberg and had been the capital of an Austro-Hungarian province called Galicia; in those days the Ukrainians had been called Ruthenians and were decidely a peasant underclass, whereas the Jewish community were relatively privileged. The local population took advantage of Nazi occupation to commit a vile pogrom against the Jewish community and then by November 1941 the ghetto was established and Jewish people herded into it - over 110,000 into an area far too small. The deportations commenced in April 1942 - one of the deportees in the next 14 months was Simon Wiesentahl.

Only three families survived the liquidation of the Lemberg ghetto, which took place in June 1943. One of these was the Chiger family, about ten people. Their father had had the foresight to dig an escape tunnel below the floorboards, tunnelling into the sewer system; when the liquidation started, he escorted his family down into the unknown and trusted to Fate.

Fate was kind to the Chiger family. They had escaped into a network of tunnels which was being maintained by an ex-criminal and low level sewage worker called Leopold Socha. They bribed him, and so Socha chose not to tell on them and found them a survivable corner which was somewhat off the beaten track, even for sewage workers. In exchange for money, Socha brought food and clean water; and he kept them informed about the outside world.

It was when their money ran out that the story became a bit more intriguing. Socha continued to feed and harbour them - it turned out that he had humanity and had taken pity on them in their dreadful situation. Socha in fact is an accidental hero of the holocaust, one of many little people who helped small groups of Jews to hide and survive. He had never actively tried to become a rescuer, but when called on to turn people in, he preferred not to cross that line.

The youngest girl of the Chiger family later wrote a memoir of their escape. She adored Leopold Socha and considered him to be an angel, even though she was not blind to the fact that he was decidedly a naughty boy. Socha was particularly kind to her; she was only eight and the horror she had witnessed had made her stop talking completely - Socha gradually eased her into talking again, sometimes taking her to a manhole cover in the early hours to see the daylight world.

Sadly, Leopold Socha died in a traffic accident after the war; but he has a tree in Yad Vashem. He was an example of someone who didn't follow the herd but made his own decisions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Socha

May kind angels take him to his rest.

**Reclaimedwg** · July 21st, 2018, 02:56 PM

Watching Saving Private Ryan for the umpteenth time.

Is that James Ryan's mother or his wife?

It could be his mother since they are at the Normandy Memorial which was established in 1944, so there is no telling how many years after the end of World War II did this scene occured. It could had been in the 1970's when Ryan was in his 50's or maybe even sooner in the 1960's when he was still in his 40's.

I have known folks that were in the mid to late 40's who looked like they were 70 years old.

I also want to think if it's not too many years after the end of the war and James Ryan is still in his 50's to early 60's, then the woman in the background could be his wife and the adult male could be his oldest son and the rest are his children and grandchildren.

UPDATE:

The adult male is Ryan's son, he calls him Dad when his family runs up to him at the beginning.

Here's a close up of his family. I still think that old woman is his mother and not his wife and the woman right behind Ryan's right shoulder is his wife.

**scoundrel** · August 19th, 2018, 08:59 PM

Driving south on the M11 motorway this evening I overtook a large vehicle which was carrying a Hawker Hurricane minus its wings and propeller. I didn't get as close a look as I would have liked because I was driving and the sides of the lorry concealed the recognition letters. But the red white and blue markings on the tail were of the earlier rectangle type and the engine dimensions looked shorter, like one of the first generation Merlin engines; but the biggest clue was that the first three letters of its serial number, V65, were clear to be seen on the tail.

Google tells me that Mark One Hurricane no. V6555 was flown in the Battle of Britain and until early 1941 by Squadron Leader Robert Stanford Tuck, the CO of 257 Squadron, based at RAF North Weald. As it happens, North Weald, just north of London, is conveniently located for the M11 motorway and the lorry I passed was only about 5 miles north of the relevant junction. But where it was actually going I couldn't say, except the best bet is probably the RAF Museum at Hendon.

I doubt if it was the original V6555 - I seem to think Squadron Leader Tuck lost that one to battle damage. It may not even have been a real Hawker Hurricane, but if it wasn't it was a damn fine replica.

crinolynne · August 19th, 2018, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Driving south on the M11 motorway this evening I overtook a large vehicle which was carrying a Hawker Hurricane minus its wings and propeller..

Interesting, same happened to me a couple years ago on the A90 about 15 miles west of Dundee. It was a spitfire, the wings were alongside so perhaps that's why I didn't see any registration letters. Not that I recall anyway, I was too astonished and that piece of highway is not the safest at 85 mph...

Thanks for sharing Mr S.

**Reclaimedwg** · August 21st, 2018, 01:56 AM

Reading up on The Great Escape:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_III

Amazing how they were able to accomplish all that with the limited tools and resources they had.

Fucking Nazis, Gestapos and SS are trigger happy murdering scums.

Murdering unarmed POWs and not adhering to the Geneva Conventions.

**Ernesto75** · August 21st, 2018, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildtig2013

Fucking Nazis, Gestapos and SS are trigger happy murdering scums.

Murdering unarmed POWs and not adhering to the Geneva Conventions.

I think Germany had adhered to the Geneva Convention but they did not always respect its rules.

The SS surely did not respect them. They thought they were beyond that. They simply
behaved like savages.

**Dr Pepper** · August 21st, 2018, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernesto75

I think Germany had adhered to the Geneva Convention but they did not always respect its rules.

The SS surely did not respect them. They thought they were beyond that. They simply
behaved like savages.

There were a number of German civilians executed postwar, after the various war crimes trials for the killing of downed allied airmen-so it wasn't just the SS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAdaFpHkhW0

**Mal Hombre** · August 21st, 2018, 07:12 PM

It was the Gestapo who shot the fifty Great Escapees,The orders came from the top,The Personal order of the Fuhrer...

Helenic · August 21st, 2018, 07:24 PM

You should remember that the British, Americans and in fact all the allies also murdered unarmed troops who had surrendered. Not as many, perhaps. The main and most significant difference is in the ideology and scale - the Nazi ideology was deliberately vicious by design, whereas our excesses were the excesses of individual troops and not deliberate design. But GB invented concentration camps in the Boer War and killed through starvation and disease tens of thousands of civilians through 'neglect'. The people running those camps saw what they were doing and did it anyway.
The worst possible lesson to draw from WW2 is that Nazi scum were inhuman and that we would never do those things. The truth is that we would and there is no difference between them and us and all that stands between us and those actions is our political system and education. And we have been moving to the Right for decades.

Helenic · August 21st, 2018, 07:29 PM

The Nazis WERE part of the German state, so I am not sure what you mean. And not all Nazis were German. Many were French and in fact all the allies had Nazi members in Germany fighting for the Axis. Even Britain.
As for adhering to the Geneva Convention - no. Red Cross parcels were routinely withheld, for example, hospital ships and clearly marked hospitals on land targeted, and so on.

July 13th, 2018, 05:36 AM	#8261
scoundrel Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England Posts: 26,238 Thanks: 162,399 Thanked 278,475 Times in 26,182 Posts	Leopold Socha - thief, burglar, sewage labourer and hero of the holocaust In 1939 the Polish city of Lwow (which is now Lviv and located in Ukraine) had a large Jewish community, over 150,000 people. This grew to over 200,000 as Jews moved eastwards in 1939 to the relative safety of Russian-occupied Poland and away from the Nazis. But of course the Nazis captured Lwow early on in June 1941. There was bad blood between the predominately Ukrainian majority population and the Jewish community in Lwow going back centuries. Lwow had previously been called Lemberg and had been the capital of an Austro-Hungarian province called Galicia; in those days the Ukrainians had been called Ruthenians and were decidely a peasant underclass, whereas the Jewish community were relatively privileged. The local population took advantage of Nazi occupation to commit a vile pogrom against the Jewish community and then by November 1941 the ghetto was established and Jewish people herded into it - over 110,000 into an area far too small. The deportations commenced in April 1942 - one of the deportees in the next 14 months was Simon Wiesentahl. Only three families survived the liquidation of the Lemberg ghetto, which took place in June 1943. One of these was the Chiger family, about ten people. Their father had had the foresight to dig an escape tunnel below the floorboards, tunnelling into the sewer system; when the liquidation started, he escorted his family down into the unknown and trusted to Fate. Fate was kind to the Chiger family. They had escaped into a network of tunnels which was being maintained by an ex-criminal and low level sewage worker called Leopold Socha. They bribed him, and so Socha chose not to tell on them and found them a survivable corner which was somewhat off the beaten track, even for sewage workers. In exchange for money, Socha brought food and clean water; and he kept them informed about the outside world. It was when their money ran out that the story became a bit more intriguing. Socha continued to feed and harbour them - it turned out that he had humanity and had taken pity on them in their dreadful situation. Socha in fact is an accidental hero of the holocaust, one of many little people who helped small groups of Jews to hide and survive. He had never actively tried to become a rescuer, but when called on to turn people in, he preferred not to cross that line. The youngest girl of the Chiger family later wrote a memoir of their escape. She adored Leopold Socha and considered him to be an angel, even though she was not blind to the fact that he was decidedly a naughty boy. Socha was particularly kind to her; she was only eight and the horror she had witnessed had made her stop talking completely - Socha gradually eased her into talking again, sometimes taking her to a manhole cover in the early hours to see the daylight world. Sadly, Leopold Socha died in a traffic accident after the war; but he has a tree in Yad Vashem. He was an example of someone who didn't follow the herd but made his own decisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Socha May kind angels take him to his rest. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

July 21st, 2018, 02:56 PM	#8262
Reclaimedwg Vintage Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,414 Thanks: 7,709 Thanked 26,946 Times in 3,089 Posts	Watching Saving Private Ryan for the umpteenth time. Is that James Ryan's mother or his wife? It could be his mother since they are at the Normandy Memorial which was established in 1944, so there is no telling how many years after the end of World War II did this scene occured. It could had been in the 1970's when Ryan was in his 50's or maybe even sooner in the 1960's when he was still in his 40's. I have known folks that were in the mid to late 40's who looked like they were 70 years old. I also want to think if it's not too many years after the end of the war and James Ryan is still in his 50's to early 60's, then the woman in the background could be his wife and the adult male could be his oldest son and the rest are his children and grandchildren. UPDATE: The adult male is Ryan's son, he calls him Dad when his family runs up to him at the beginning. Here's a close up of his family. I still think that old woman is his mother and not his wife and the woman right behind Ryan's right shoulder is his wife. Last edited by Reclaimedwg; July 21st, 2018 at 03:04 PM..

August 19th, 2018, 08:59 PM	#8263
scoundrel Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England Posts: 26,238 Thanks: 162,399 Thanked 278,475 Times in 26,182 Posts	Driving south on the M11 motorway this evening I overtook a large vehicle which was carrying a Hawker Hurricane minus its wings and propeller. I didn't get as close a look as I would have liked because I was driving and the sides of the lorry concealed the recognition letters. But the red white and blue markings on the tail were of the earlier rectangle type and the engine dimensions looked shorter, like one of the first generation Merlin engines; but the biggest clue was that the first three letters of its serial number, V65, were clear to be seen on the tail. Google tells me that Mark One Hurricane no. V6555 was flown in the Battle of Britain and until early 1941 by Squadron Leader Robert Stanford Tuck, the CO of 257 Squadron, based at RAF North Weald. As it happens, North Weald, just north of London, is conveniently located for the M11 motorway and the lorry I passed was only about 5 miles north of the relevant junction. But where it was actually going I couldn't say, except the best bet is probably the RAF Museum at Hendon. I doubt if it was the original V6555 - I seem to think Squadron Leader Tuck lost that one to battle damage. It may not even have been a real Hawker Hurricane, but if it wasn't it was a damn fine replica. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

August 21st, 2018, 07:12 PM	#8268
Mal Hombre El Super Moderador Join Date: May 2009 Location: Adoptive Monkey Hanger Posts: 58,134 Thanks: 772,663 Thanked 855,756 Times in 57,565 Posts	It was the Gestapo who shot the fifty Great Escapees,The orders came from the top,The Personal order of the Fuhrer... __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. If in doubt, Just ask Yourself What Would Max Do ? It is a porn site,But its a Classy porn site. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

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August 21st, 2018, 01:56 AM	#8265
Reclaimedwg Vintage Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3,414 Thanks: 7,709 Thanked 26,946 Times in 3,089 Posts	Reading up on The Great Escape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_Luft_III Amazing how they were able to accomplish all that with the limited tools and resources they had. Fucking Nazis, Gestapos and SS are trigger happy murdering scums. Murdering unarmed POWs and not adhering to the Geneva Conventions.

August 21st, 2018, 07:24 PM	#8269
Helenic Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 69 Thanks: 6 Thanked 437 Times in 65 Posts	You should remember that the British, Americans and in fact all the allies also murdered unarmed troops who had surrendered. Not as many, perhaps. The main and most significant difference is in the ideology and scale - the Nazi ideology was deliberately vicious by design, whereas our excesses were the excesses of individual troops and not deliberate design. But GB invented concentration camps in the Boer War and killed through starvation and disease tens of thousands of civilians through 'neglect'. The people running those camps saw what they were doing and did it anyway. The worst possible lesson to draw from WW2 is that Nazi scum were inhuman and that we would never do those things. The truth is that we would and there is no difference between them and us and all that stands between us and those actions is our political system and education. And we have been moving to the Right for decades.

August 21st, 2018, 07:29 PM	#8270
Helenic Member Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 69 Thanks: 6 Thanked 437 Times in 65 Posts	The Nazis WERE part of the German state, so I am not sure what you mean. And not all Nazis were German. Many were French and in fact all the allies had Nazi members in Germany fighting for the Axis. Even Britain. As for adhering to the Geneva Convention - no. Red Cross parcels were routinely withheld, for example, hospital ships and clearly marked hospitals on land targeted, and so on.