The First World War

[Trintron]

Originally Posted by palo5

Absolutely not true, Comrade. Under the Tsars, 95%+ of Russia was illiterate, had no healthcare, many had no work and some even had no home

The USSR created 100% literacy, universal healthcare, full employment and housing, all guaranteed by the Constitution. No human being could say this was bad

As a social economic system, the USSR left many Russians better off, but politically it was very politically repressive especially under Stalin, my Poli-Sci professor once said Joseph Stalin's greatest contribution to world peace was passing away.

The unfortunate thing about Tsarist Russia was that the abolition of serfdom and the many institutional reforms that were needed to bring Russia out of it's Feudal social structure were only implemented when the Tsars were going to be forced to implement any changes to Tsarist Russia's feudal system.

Tsar Nicolas II took seriously the idea of reforming the Country's constitution and setting up a constitutional monarchy right before he was removed from power by the Bolsheviks. Even then, I don't know if he was ever serious about making these changes permanent.

Things in the USSR were bad, but many Russians were much worse off in Tsarist Russia.

[Mal Hombre]

The pity of it is,For a few short months Russia had a chance for real democracy under Nicholas Kerensky's government,If the Western powers had had the collective will in 1918-19 the Bolsheviks might have been defeated and Russia might have had that chance again.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

The pity of it is,For a few short months Russia had a chance for real democracy under Nicholas Kerensky's government,If the Western powers had had the collective will in 1918-19 the Bolsheviks might have been defeated and Russia might have had that chance again.

I would find Palo's views on this one interesting. I have an idea that the Intervention was part of why Russia became for decades such an aggressive and paranoid power. Even if I disagreed with my own system of government (as opposed to my own government, because politicians come and go), I would regard such a foreign Intervention as an affront to my country's sovereignty and would naturally rally to defend my country from invasion, even to the flag of my enemies if my enemies were in power and were leading a credible defense of my country from foreign invasion.

I am not clear what the goals of the Intervention were from Britain's point of view. I certainly don't think we were trying to introduce liberal democracy. The Japanese, who occupied large tracts of Siberia, would presumably have been hoping to seize territory and natural resources which belonged to someone else; they were not nice people. I suppose that in 1918 the hope was that Allied troops could ally themselves with pro-monarchist factions and create a government which would bring Russia back into WW1 and re-create the Eastern Front. I certainly do not think this was in Russia's best interests or that it was intended to be in Russia's best interests. I think we wanted to exploit Russia for our own policy ends. We were not very nice people either.

Alexander Kerensky is an intriguing political figure; he might have led Russia in a very different and much better direction than the one in which Lenin led Russia after Kerensky was deposed. I lack the detailed knowledge of Russia's social history needed to really analyse why Kerensky failed, but he continued to prosecute the war, the war which had helped to depose Tsar Nicholas, and that must surely have been a serious mistake. After the October Revolution, Lenin was quick to negotiate peace terms with Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary, terms which were humiliating and wildly unjust to the Russian people, because the enemy knew that Russia was in a very weak bargaining position. Kerensky had an opportunity to negotiate when Russia still had credible armies, was still a serious threat, and might have been able to cut a much better deal. I am not sure why he didn't; I am sure he should have done this. His attempt to prosecute the war failed badly and I suppose that was his undoing.

It's a pity. Lenin was a bastard and Stalin was worse. Maybe we are lucky that Stalin defeated and ultimately assassinated Trotsky because Trotsky had dreams of formenting world revolution, partly in revenge for the Intervention. Kerensky was a decent man, which was probably why he failed.

[Ennath]

June 10, 1915
Eastern Front Russian attacks gain around Zurawno.
Cameroon Anglo-French troops take Garua.

June 10, 1916
Eastern Front Russian troops take Dubno and push on beyond the Styrpa.
Italian Front An Austrian attack on the Isonzo front takes Hill 197.
Mediterranean French troops occupy Thasos to establish a naval base.
Mesopotamia Turkish artillery sinks three British munitions barges on the Tigris.
German East Africa British troops occupy Mkalamo.
New Zealand A National Service bill is passed.
German Planning Although victory in the west still eludes him, Falkenhayn sees no alternative to assisting Conrad. He orders Ludendorff and Hindenburg to send five divisions from the northern sector and tells Crown Prince Wilhelm to do the same with four of the divisions at Verdun, while temporarily halting the offensive there.

June 10, 1917
Western Front The British progress at Messines.
Italian Front The Trentino Offensive – planned in December by Cadorna for the spring, but delayed by the 10th Battle of the Isonzo – finally opens at 5:15 AM with an artillery bombardment. Cadorna has assembled ten divisions, a new force called the 6th Army, and 1500 guns for his offensive, intended to drive the Austrians – units of Conrad’s Army Group Tirol – from the Asiago Plateau and force their withdrawal from the Assa River valley. Although the Austrian lines are obscured by heavy mists, the Italian shelling wreaks havoc upon their defensive positions. After nearly five hours of shelling, Italian troops begin to advance as the mists slowly dissipate. Their attack in the Monte Ortigara sector ends in hand-to-hand combat. Although in some sectors, the Italians manage to advance by the end of the day, clearing Agnello Pass, overall the Austrians hold fast while inflicting heavy casualties that prompt the commander of 6th Army to recommend to Cadorna that the offensive be terminated. But the commander in chief determines to pursue the offensive, allowing a 2-day respite – a fateful pause.
German East Africa Operations open to clear the Germans from the estuary of the Lukuledi River.

June 10, 1918
Western Front Though hammered by fierce French artillery fire, Hutier’s troops push ahead another two miles in the Matz sector. Humbert’s right center crumbles, placing his right in jeopardy. Carlepont Wood and the heights of Marqueglise fall. To avert disaster, he pulls the entire right back six miles. Petain and Fayolle, the army group commander, send reinforcements to come under the command of Mangin. Fayolle orders Mangin to relieve Humbert’s right flank by attacking towards Ressons-sur-Matz from the southwest. Mangin orders the attack to begin at 11:00 AM with no preliminary bombardment. Mangin asserts: “The attack will be ruthless, pressed to the limit. This will be the end of the defensive battles we have fought for the past two months. From now on we attack. We must succeed. Go back to your men and tell them just that.” Foch approves. Meanwhile, the French retake Courcelles. Australian troops raid south of Morlancourt.
Macedonia The French carry Mount Kamia, southwest of Lake Ochrida.
Caucasus German arrival in the area has led to German-Ottoman rivalry. On the road to Tiflis, Turkish 3rd Army confronts a German-Georgian force and attacks it, taking several German prisoners. Threats from Berlin to withdraw all aid force the Turks to back down and halt all movement into Georgia.

June 10, 1919
United States Congressional Republicans request the separation of the League of Nations covenant from the Peace Treaty. Wilson refuses.

[Ennath]

The Allied intervention in Russia was originally intended to keep all the war material shipped to Russia out of German hands. It expanded from there to trying to put a government in place that would keep Russia in the war. Then it seemed to take on a life of its own. After the armistice, support for the intervention gradually declined. Most Allied troops were war weary and, especially after November 11, 1918, figured that their job was done and just wanted to go home. The French in particular faced near mutiny at Odessa. By the end of 1919, most forces other than the Japanese were gone (but they are another story).

The interventions never had a chance of succeeding. The forces committed were tiny and the White armies they were intended to stiffen were, at least in the north, completely inadequate. Of course, there weren't too many Russians living in the north to begin with;Murmansk was a brand new town and Archangelsk hardly a metropolis. When the Soviets attacked in March 1920, the northern regime collapsed with barely a whimper.

I'm not sure the intervention can be blamed for Soviet expansionism and the harshness of the Lenin and Stalin regimes. There was plenty of internal opposition, including numerous peasant risings, to spark repression without the Allies. And the spread of the revolution throughout the world was always a part of the plan.

[tygrkhat40]

Hurrah for revolution and more cannon-shot!
A beggar upon horseback lashes a beggar on foot,
Hurrah for revolution and cannon come again!
The beggars have changed places but the lash goes on.
~ WB Yeats.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Pete Townshend, "Won't Get Fooled Again"

[Ennath]

June 11, 1915
Western Front A German counterattack south of Hebuterne fails. The French take Neuville.
Eastern Front The Russians take 16,000 Austrian prisoners around Zurawno.
Black Sea The cruiser Breslau engages two Russian destroyers off Zonguldak and is forced to break off and return to Constantinople with three hits. One Russian ship is heavily damaged.
Italian Front Italian troops attack Hill 383 near Plava in hopes of establishing a secure bridgehead over the Isonzo.

June 11, 1916
Western Front, Verdun Frustrated and constrained by Joffre’s and Nivelle’s imperiousness – their insensible consignment of more men to the “furnace of Verdun” – and concerned over French troops’ morale, yet all too aware of the symbolic importance of Verdun to the French public, Petain writes to Joffre “Verdun is menaced and Verdun must not fall. The capture of this city would constitute for the Germans an inestimable success that would greatly raise their morale and lower our own.” Petain pleads with Joffre to advance the date for the planned major British offensive on the Somme River in July. But even a significant British victory, he says, “would not compensate in the eyes of public sentiment for the loss of this city, and at this moment sentiment possesses an importance that it would be inexpedient to disregard.” Some French commanders have already concluded that the city will fall to the Germans, who appear to be gaining the advantage, including a 2-1 ratio in artillery.
Western Front, Elsewhere The Germans launch a heavy bombardment of Ypres.
Eastern Front Russian troops reach the suburbs of Czernowitz, but are checked near Lutsk and lose some ground on the Styrpa to Austrian counterattacks.. German attacks on the Dvinsk and Vilna fronts stall.
Italy Mounting criticism of the war forces the resignation of Prime Minister Antonio Salandra, who is succeeded by the aged Paolo Boselli, now given the burden of trying to unite the nation behind a continuing war effort.
Caucasus The Russians repulse a Turkish attack at Platina, west of Trebizond.

June 11, 1917
Western Front British troops capture the La Potterie defenses.
Greece Carrying out a policy of firmness decided upon by Lloyd George and Ribot intended to bring Venizelos to power, French troops land at Corinth and a Franco-British force enters Thessaly. The French envoy in Athens delivers an ultimatum. Accordingly, Constantine abdicates in favor of his second son, the pro-Allied Alexander.
United States Goethels recommends the building of fabricated steel ships, but there is a debate on the price of steel. The EFC proposes to buy steel at the high price of 4.25 cents per pound, giving companies like Bethlehem Steel profits of over 50%.

June 11, 1918
Western Front Mangin’s troops assemble in a morning mist that conceals them from the Germans. As the mist disperses at 11:30, they surge forward, covered by a rolling barrage and by air attacks and accompanied by tanks. The French rapidly retake Fretoy, Mery, Belloy and Antheuil. German artillery in the woods above Belloy checks the advance. As hoped, Humbert holds the Germans all day.
Because the U.S. marines in Belleau Wood have been so close to the enemy line that no artillery support is possible and they remain pinned down after four days of combat, their commanders pull back the frontline troops and, to the surprise of the Germans, let loose a barrage on the enemy positions that sunders the trees of Belleau Wood. Renewing the attack on the dazed Germans, the marines take 300 prisoners and most of Belleau Wood.

June 11, 1920
Russia Britain is recognizing the inevitable and looking to reopen trade with Russia. The Royal Navy is ordered not to support Wrangel.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

...I have an idea that the Intervention was part of why Russia became for decades such an aggressive and paranoid power...

"Part" is correct - Russia has suffered about 40 worse violations (= invasions) in the last 200 years. So mistrust, distrust, no trust, is not unnatural, and certainly not paranoia

How many times has the UK/USA been invaded ever? Exploiting fear where no threat exists - now we're talking about paranoia, and the ability of capitalists to use it

...Maybe we are lucky that Stalin defeated and ultimately assassinated Trotsky because Trotsky had dreams of formenting world revolution...

You said it

[rotobott]

Originally Posted by palo5

"Part" is correct - Russia has suffered about 40 worse violations (= invasions) in the last 200 years. So mistrust, distrust, no trust, is not unnatural, and certainly not paranoia

How many times has the UK/USA been invaded ever? Exploiting fear where no threat exists - now we're talking about paranoia, and the ability of capitalists to use it



You said it

Hey we in the UK have been invaded by the Italians, the French and the Scandinavians, those masters of warfare.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by rotobott

Hey we in the UK have been invaded by the Italians, the French and the Scandinavians, those masters of warfare.

German and Dutch invaders have dropped in for tea and scones as well. One of our best kings was a chap from Denmark who only invited himself in because Aethelred the Unready had murdered his aunt and he wanted to discuss this minor difficulty with Aethelred and with some other people who had only been obeying orders...