The Second World War.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Ennath

...Kuriles Soviet troops attack Shimushu, northernmost island in the chain...

I was sure you would mention this

The islands are still 'disputed' by the Japanese. Russia wants to solve this, because there is no reason for bad relations with Japan as a result of these islands

But there is a big problem. Some time in the 90s, Russia sent a team to investigate the subject. Most thought before leaving, that Russia should find a way to give the islands (or some of them) to Japan

And when they arrived, all they saw was poverty and backwardness, Russian-style. But when they asked the inhabitants, virtually everyone said they would fight if the islands were given to the Japanese

So the team recommended to keep them

Further talks have brought no improvement in relations in this matter, afaik

No doubt the English in the Falkland Islands understand this problem very well

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

I was sure you would mention this

The islands are still 'disputed' by the Japanese. Russia wants to solve this, because there is no reason for bad relations with Japan as a result of these islands

But there is a big problem. Some time in the 90s, Russia sent a team to investigate the subject. Most thought before leaving, that Russia should find a way to give the islands (or some of them) to Japan

And when they arrived, all they saw was poverty and backwardness, Russian-style. But when they asked the inhabitants, virtually everyone said they would fight if the islands were given to the Japanese

So the team recommended to keep them

Further talks have brought no improvement in relations in this matter, afaik

No doubt the English in the Falkland Islands understand this problem very well

You cannot ignore the wishes and feelings of the people who live there. Japan has a stronger claim than Argentina; there never were Argentinians living on the Falklands, except briefly a penal colony, whose prisoners went over to the British when the British arrived in force to reassert their sovereignty claim in 1833. The guards and the administration were curtly told to go away and did not argue. But the Kuriles were a Japanese territory and settled as one for centuries.

However, after waging aggressive war against her own neighbours, Japan lost hands down and Russia paid her back in her own coin for very recent wars of unprovoked aggression against Russians in Siberia.

Suck it up, Japan.

[Ennath]

Sakhalin and the Kuriles were taken by Japan in 1905. Russia saw itself as taking back what was lost. Curious how the Soviets, so eager to damn the imperial regime, were perfectly prepared to uphold claims to imperial territorial acquisitions. Still, Russia's claims there are at least as good as anyone's. Not much left, if anything, of pre-colonial native culture, so who has a better claim?

[Ennath]

August 19-23, 1936
Russia, Politics Beginning of the Great Purges in Russia as Stalin moves to eliminate all possible sources of opposition both within and without the Communist Party. Zinoviev, Kamenev, and 14 other “Old Bolsheviks” are given a public trial, forced to fabricate confessions of their “errors”, and executed. Among them is NKVD chief Yagoda. Nikolai Yezhov becomes head of the NKVD and directs the Purges.

August 19, 1939
Battle of the Atlantic The German Navy sends 14 U-Boats to patrol the North Atlantic because of the tense international situation. The pocket battleships Graf Spee and Deutschland sail on August 21 and 24. Supply ships are also dispatched to operate with these units.

August 19-September 10, 1941
Arctic There are various British naval operations. The population of Spitsbergen is evacuated; the Norwegians are taken to Britain and the Russians to the USSR. The first small supply convoy is sent from Iceland to the Soviet Union. The old carrier Argus also brings a cargo of Hurricanes to Russia, complete with RAF pilots who will fly them in combat for the first few weeks. The Victorious sends air attacks against German installations in and around Tromso but little damage is done.

August 19, 1942
Western Europe There is a major raid on Dieppe by Canadian and British troops. The forces involved are from 2nd Canadian Division and 3 & 4 Commandos with a handful of Americans and Free French – in all about 6000 men. The raid is designed to provide battle experience for the troops and gain information about German coastal defenses which might be useful for the future. The raid is a disaster. Almost none of the installations marked for destruction are reached and only a small proportion of the landing force can be evacuated. The Allies lose 3600 men, 106 aircraft, a destroyer, 30 tanks, and 33 landing craft. The Germans lose about 600 men and about 50 planes. The lessons of the operation, however bitter, are very important, both on general points of how difficult it is to capture a defended port, or how important a preliminary bombardment is, to the more detailed lessons relating to equipment for beach landings.
Holland, Resistance A racing pigeon named Tommy reaches Britain with a message from the Dutch resistance revealing the location of an important U-Boat base.
Eastern Front A Soviet counterattack opens a gap between German 6th and Italian 8th Armies. The time spent repelling this attack and restoring the line slows the drive on the Volga.
In the north, from this period until the end of September, the Soviets launch a series of attacks around Volhov to try and relieve Leningrad, but they are repulsed by German 18th Army.
Guadalcanal US Marines occupy the villages of Matanikau and Kokumbona, but their perimeter is still very shallow.

August 19, 1943
Diplomatic Relations The Italians have made covert approaches to the Allies to negotiate surrender. General Bedell Smith, Eisenhower’s Chief of Staff, and General Strong, his Chief of Intelligence, arrive in Lisbon to continue the talks with approaches to the British ambassador there, Sir Samuel Hoare.
German Command The Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe, General Jeschonnek, commits suicide after being criticized for the effects of the attacks on Peenemunde and Schweinfurt.
Solomons The Americans on Baanga capture the Japanese heavy guns.
New Guinea Under heavy Allied pressure the Japanese abandon Mount Tambu and the Komiatum Ridge, the last significant obstacles before Salamaua.

August 19, 1944
Western Front US XV Corps reaches the Seine at Mantes Grassicourt. The fighting between Falaise and Argentan is fierce as the Germans attempt to break out. Polish 1st Armored Division comes under particularly heavy pressure around Chambois but repulses the attacks.
In Paris, the Resistance rises against the Germans and fighting spreads through the streets.
Eastern Front In Warsaw, the Germans begin major operations against the Old Town.

August 19, 1945
Diplomatic Relations A Japanese delegation reaches Manila to agree details of the capitulation. They return to Tokyo the following day.
Manchuria Soviet troops capture Tsitsihar and link up with Chinese Communist troops. A Japanese breakout attempt from Hutou fails with heavy loss.
Kuriles The Soviet command orders operations on Shimushu speeded up. The Soviet troops begin pushing out into the rest of the island.
China Chiang forbids Japanese troops to surrender to Communist forces and orders the Communist armies not to advance.

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by Ennath

August 19, 1942
Holland, Resistance A racing pigeon named Tommy reaches Britain with a message from the Dutch resistance revealing the location of an important U-Boat base.

Of course, the Germans also used homing pigeons ... but counter-measures were deployed! (I assume some means were devised in order to ensure that Allied pigeons wouldn't fall foul of them!)

This is from a BBC report dated 27th January, 1999

Nazi-trained homing pigeons were the target of British covert operations during WWII, it has emerged. Scores of lofts of the message-carrying birds were pinpointed by MI5 agents in 1940 across Belgium, West Holland and the Balkans. The airborne threat was believed to be the pet project of SS chief Heinrich Himmler - who was known by British intelligence as an avowed pigeon fancier. Under interrogation, captured "German pigeon personnel" told how the birds were a vital component of Hitler's plans to invade Britain.

The MI5 report on the phenomenon, released with a batch of wartime secret service documents this week, said: "From these prisoners of war it was learnt that it was anticipated that the birds would be used to convey information obtained by short-term pre-invasion agents." To counter the menace, MI5 tamed and trained its own crack force of peregrine falcons, with the aim of felling incoming pigeons.

According to documents now held at the Public Record Office in Kew, London, at least two of the captured pigeons became "prisoners of war". Displaying humor in the midst of adversity, an intelligence officer marked in his report: "Both birds are now prisoners of war working hard at breeding English pigeons."

The new Army Pigeon Service Special Section birds of prey were used to set up an airborne net over the Scilly Isles early in 1942 following sightings of pigeons disappearing towards France. The MI5 report notes Britain's new anti-pigeon force would patrol for two hours at a time over the islands off the Cornish coast. It says: "This was a great success. The falcon flying high above the Scillies could watch not only a part of one island, but the whole group, and any pigeon flying over them would be attacked."

Agents had found that the Nazi party had taken control of all pigeon lofts in Germany after it assumed power, while Himmler had ordered the use of pigeons by his own Gestapo security police. The British document notes: "It is said that Himmler, who has been a pigeon fancier and enthusiast all his life, is the head or president of the German National Pigeon Society. "And he has brought his enthusiasm for pigeons into the Gestapo, who are said to use this form of communication both in Germany and in the occupied countries."

Intelligence officers also investigated ways in which pigeons were deposited in the UK. They believed some were carried in by individuals, and that some were dropped off in baskets by high-speed E-Boats and submarines. Dropping pigeons by parachute was also identified as a possible method of their entering the country.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by squigg58

Of course, the Germans also used homing pigeons ...Nazi-trained homing pigeons were the target of British covert operations during WWII, it has emerged. Scores of lofts of the message-carrying birds were pinpointed by MI5....

hahaha!

"Nazi pigeons" ... "pinpointed by MI5" - yeah, those super sleuths could identify a Nazi-pigeon immediately

Seriously, I can't stop laughing! - where do you get this stuff?

But I know something even more weird, and afaik it's true. Yes, really

At the beginning of WWI, the English did not know how to combat U-Boats (they weren't alone there - no one did). Anyway, according to a serious history book in my possession, the English tried to train pigeons and/or other birds to shit on U-Boat periscopes so they couldn't see any targets!

Who would have known the English were so 'Green-at-Heart'?

(I'm not making this up, btw)

[Mal Hombre]

It was seagulls,It didn't work as Seagulls don't go far out to sea,Mind You using dogs to blow up Enemy tanks didn't work very well either .....

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

It was seagulls....

It is truly comedy, MH. Imagine what the admirals were hoping:

First Lt: "Herr KaLeunt, why are we not shooting torpedoes?"

U-Boat commander: "We must dive. The seagulls have shit on us, and I can see nothing. We must shoot later where there are no seagulls"

You must admit, this is even funnier than MI5 "pinpointing" "Nazi-pigeons"

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by palo5

hahaha!

"Nazi pigeons" ... "pinpointed by MI5" - yeah, those super sleuths could identify a Nazi-pigeon immediately

Seriously, I can't stop laughing! - where do you get this stuff?

Many files which were once regarded as "Secret" are released into the public domain after a fixed period of time, and are then kept at the Public Record Office in Kew, London. As well as those from WWII, there were quite a few Government UFO files released recently. As mentioned, this one was from a BBC report in 1999 ... and I did check that it wasn't from the 1st April!

Often, desperate measures are called for during wartime, and I'm sure there are examples of seemingly "crackpot ideas" which actually worked, or at least led to something which worked. In fact, didn't the development of Radar come from investigations into "death-rays"?

I would imagine that if the Barnes Wallis "bouncing bomb" hadn't been fully developed and used successfully, we'd have a bit of a chuckle at the idea, and I'm quite sure that the first person who suggested "skip bombing" was laughed at!

Originally Posted by palo5

But I know something even more weird, and afaik it's true. Yes, really

At the beginning of WWI, the English did not know how to combat U-Boats (they weren't alone there - no one did). Anyway, according to a serious history book in my possession, the English tried to train pigeons and/or other birds to shit on U-Boat periscopes so they couldn't see any targets!

Who would have known the English were so 'Green-at-Heart'?

(I'm not making this up, btw)

As far as I know, the seagull idea was actually tested in the Firth of Forth in WWI. A float with dummy U-boat periscope attached would discharge bits of meat and other food into the water, with the intention of attracting gulls. Once "trained" the gulls would then flock round any real U-boat periscopes, thereby giving away their positions. However, the gulls weren't interested and as Mal pointed out, gulls tend to stay fairly close to land.

[scoundrel]

Don't forget we have a First World War thread also. Submarine warfare was in its infancy in WW1. However, the Royal Navy did evolve some imaginative (though totally unethical) counter-measures, such as Q Ships.

Seagulls crapping on the perescopes in 1914 had, by 1943, evolved into Short Sunderland flying boats equipped with ASV Mark 3 centimetre wavelength radar and torpex depth-charges.





The Sunderland was the British equivalent of the German Condor. Like the Condor, it was originally designed for civil aviation and redesigned for military use as a marine reconnaissance and patrol plane, suitable for the task due to its size, long range and carrying capacity. A Sunderland could stay airbourne at cruising speed for 10 hours and cover 1,780 miles in that 10 hours. At its most economical speed it could do a 14 hour patrol. It was slower than a Condor, the maximum speeds being 210mph v 224mph respectively; but it proved to be highly effective in various roles, including long-range air-sea rescue.

It was used in the Bay of Biscay to harrass U Boats on the first and last legs of their missions; the Germans could not afford to sail submerged all the way out, as this would radically reduce their effective range, so attacking them in the Bay of Biscay was smart tactics. Airbourne radar negated the German tactic of sailing late in the day and cruising on the surface at night. The Sunderlands used high power flares a bit like star-shells to illuminate the target during the attack run. It worked; but it was risky, because Ju88s adapted as night-fighters were extremely dangerous and could and did go out to get the Sunderlands, whose mission brought them inside the combat radius of a Ju88 based on the French Atlantic coast. However the Germans nicknamed the Sunderland "the Porcupine" because it carried up to 16 machine guns and up to 5 gunners and was just as dangerous in combat as any Ju88. One Sunderland shot down 6 Ju88s out of 8 which attacked it; the last two gave up and went home. The Sunderland crashed landed on a beach in Cornwall; most of its crew were severely wounded, including the pilot who still got them all home; but it was a victory on points. The Germans noted that this Sunderland came looking for them rather than trying to escape and that when they broke off the action, it was last seen in their wake, still pursuing and offering to fight them some more, even though it was running on three engines by then. Some multi-engined types were well armed and more defenceful and seeking combat was sometimes a better tactic than trying to run away; B26 Marauders sometimes used to do so in the Pacific, as did Lockheed Hudsons in various theatres.

RAF Bomber Command crews who had survived their first 30 mission tour were frequently posted to Coastal for their "rest" tour. It was an entirely new definition of the word "rest" which prompted much bleak humour in the lucky men concerned. Coastal was no holiday; the U Boats mounted multi-barrel 37mm flak guns and frequently chose to stay surfaced and fight it out rather than concede the loss of their patrol range and submerge when challenged. Sunderlands had 4 .303 Browning machine guns in the nose and on many occasions turned the decks of the U Boat into a slaughterhouse, but a 37mm multi-barrel can shoot down a Sunderland more than two miles out and the Sunderland needed to overfly the U Boat to kill it with depth charges, so the front gunner had to sit and wait for his moment and see if it came or if he stopped a cannon shell instead.

As holidays go, this one sucked.