Communism. Good or bad. What do you really know about Communism?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by Nobody1

That is a rather nice description for largely isolationist Maffia structures whose intrinsic mortal enemy is any ethical imperative. Perhaps you would like to see the 'often industrious and entrepreneurial' spirit that hates 'communism' in the pretty shop window, possibly for your very own ideological reasons, but I can assure you that the real dough is 'earned' exclusively in the filthy back yard by extortion, trafficking, murder, drugtrade und (child) prostetution. And those are just the small crimes. The big ones are all legalized by buying the necessary political influence. Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.

Um . . . wow. That's very far from my experience.

I worked in the tech industry for many years. Every company I was part of had lots of immigrants, really smart people from communist countries-- Eastern Europeans, Russians, Chinese , Vietnamese. These folks pretty uniformly hated communism. They weren't "prostitutes" or "mafia" -- they were smart people who wanted to make a better future for themselves and their families. All of them had seen state communism, none of them said "I'd like more of that, please".

The irony of course is that immigrants from Russia before it became communist often leaned left-- but once these folks had seen communism, or the Lenin-Stalin approximation of communism, they decided they didn't care for it.

Originally Posted by Nobody1

Btw, I mentioned it several times before. State and communism as a purely theoretical ideal are mutually exclusive. So much for the theory of a 'communist party dictatorship'.

Parties seeking what they call "communism" in this world -- perhaps not a "theoretical ideal"-- establish one party rule, often quite brutal. That may not accord with theory, but that's what happens in practice.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

- Eastern Europeans, Russians, Chinese , Vietnamese. These folks pretty uniformly hated communism.

I can vouch for that,
My hometown has a population of 200,000, about a third would be of or descendants of post WW2 immigrants, very very few would have said anything positive about the "C" word.

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by Estreeter

I can vouch for that,
My hometown has a population of 200,000, about a third would be of or descendants of post WW2 immigrants, very very few would have said anything positive about the "C" word.

If you mean immigrants from ex-Yugoslavia, particularly Serbs and Croats, those who arrived after 1945 were mostly supporters of the Ustashe and Chetniks, the fascist movements that collaborated with Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. I wouldn't expect them to like communism, even though they never lived under it but neither did the communists. What we saw throughout the 20th century were different flavors of socialism implemented "from above". That's not what the communist movement is about.

[Estreeter]

Originally Posted by Brecht

If you mean immigrants from ex-Yugoslavia, particularly Serbs and Croats, those who arrived after 1945 were mostly supporters of the Ustashe and Chetniks, the fascist movements that collaborated with Nazi Germany and fascist Italy.

You can throw in Bulgarians, Romanians, Ukrainians, Poles, Russians, any of the Baltic states and on and on, bottom line is they did live under communism, many actually fled for a better life and got it, I'm only conveying their thoughts, the vast majority of them. Some did have positive things to say about Communism, I do have to be fair in what I can say as fact.

[crinolynne]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

But the way "Communism" is understood by Communist parties in the modern world -- they can't be democratic. They're inevitably one party states. No Communist Party with the power to prevent free elections has been willing to permit them, nor are they willing to accept any political party but their own.

But a one party state is not necessarily undemocratic. The democracy just happens at a different level or indeed levels. It demands much more involvement from the individual citizen than said citizen usually wants to give. Indeed, it can be argued that Communist states are more democratic that others. Except of course that all systems are corrupted by unenlightened self interest. The problem with communism is that replaces the tyranny of Capital with the tyranny of Labour. The first delivers unacceptable disparities in standards of living, the second, an unacceptable standard of living.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

But a one party state is not necessarily undemocratic. The democracy just happens at a different level or indeed levels. It demands much more involvement from the individual citizen than said citizen usually wants to give. Indeed, it can be argued that Communist states are more democratic that others. Except of course that all systems are corrupted by unenlightened self interest. The problem with communism is that replaces the tyranny of Capital with the tyranny of Labour. The first delivers unacceptable disparities in standards of living, the second, an unacceptable standard of living.

Are you aware of any societies where a one party state is also free and democratic? I have never seen or heard of one.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by crinolynne

But a one party state is not necessarily undemocratic. The democracy just happens at a different level or indeed levels.

Perhaps not "necessarily" in theory-- but always in practice.

Try to organize a political movement challenging the Communist Party of China, or the Communist Party of North Korea -- see what happens.

We have a LOT of experience with people who profess to be "communists" running countries. Whether or not they are "necessarily undemocratic" -- by some strange coincidence they always are.

And I think the reason why is plain enough. One party states -- communist or otherwise-- diminish the authority of the State, its institutions, and the rule of law. You weren't going to go to a German court and get any legal satisfaction in confronting the Nazi regime, for example.

Or how about China today, where the CPC has just announced that the Constitution will be changed so that Xi Xinping can serve beyond the ten years previously permitted. If you were Chinese, do you imagine that you could safely try some of that "democracy at another level" to challenge this change to the Constitution?

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Perhaps not "necessarily" in theory-- but always in practice.

Try to organize a political movement challenging the Communist Party of China, or the Communist Party of North Korea -- see what happens.

First, China and North Korea are not real Marxist countries. They always use currencies and still get social classes. That's totally at the opposite theories of Marx.

What would propose your movement challenging the Communist Party?

Introduction of inequalities, classes differences, free market?

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by xyzde69

First, China and North Korea are not real Marxist countries. They always use currencies and still get social classes. That's totally at the opposite theories of Marx.

Ah, but that's what apologists say about EVERY country that says "we're establishing Marxism" and turns into a one party nightmare state.

See, I'm a practical person, not a theoretician. All sorts of things _sound_ appealing "in theory", but don't actually work "in practice" at all.

"But it says here in the book we're all supposed to live happily ever after" ain't exactly compelling when you start doing the body count in the real world.

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by deepsepia

Ah, but that's what apologists say about EVERY country that says "we're establishing Marxism" and turns into a one party nightmare state.

See, I'm a practical person, not a theoretician. All sorts of things _sound_ appealing "in theory", but don't actually work "in practice" at all.

"But it says here in the book we're all supposed to live happily ever after" ain't exactly compelling when you start doing the body count in the real world.

But what would propose your political movements challenging the Communist party?