Things Noticeable this week

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by Devius

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont has said his people voted for independence from Spain - but that he wants a negotiated solution with Madrid.

He asked the regional parliament in Barcelona to suspend the effect of the vote so talks could begin - rather than breaking away immediately.

A vote on 1 October resulted in almost 90% of voters backing independence, Catalan officials say.

Madrid said it was illegal and Spain's Constitutional Court suspended it.

No voters largely boycotted the referendum ballot - which had a reported turnout of 43% - and there were several reports of irregularities.

National police were involved in violent scenes as they manhandled voters.

Details:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41574172

Well, that was reasonable of the Catalan prime Carles Puigdemont.

And there is no infrastructure for an immediate independence of Catalonia.

But it will strengthen his position against Madrid. also without an independence. Madrid should not pull the Constitutional Court-Card, else the fire would be enlightened again.

Of course there were reports of irregularities - thanks to the violent National police of Spain. Of course one can have doubts of the result of this referendum under these circumstances.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Puhbear69

Well, that was reasonable of the Catalan prime Carles Puigdemont.

And there is no infrastructure for an immediate independence of Catalonia.

But it will strengthen his position against Madrid. also without an independence. Madrid should not pull the Constitutional Court-Card, else the fire would be enlightened again.

Of course there were reports of irregularities - thanks to the violent National police of Spain. Of course one can have doubts of the result of this referendum under these circumstances.

While I agree that the Catalan PM deciding not to proclaim independence right away is a good thing, I have to say that the is some strange new definition of the word "reasonable" of which I was never previously aware. He thinks, forsooth, that Madrid should negotiate with him and be impressed by the outcome of a totally illegal referendum. I feel rather strongly that this sort of behaviour should not be rewarded; it reminds me of similar doings in Georgia and Ukraine, not to mention Konrad Henlein and the Sudetenland in 1938. Spain's government should flatly defy this wrongful behaviour and stand by the integrity of their country. One hopes that the "reasonable" Mr Puigdemont will step back from an extremely serious position. but there is no reason why Spain should yield an inch (centimetre) to the Catalan regional government under this sort of blackmail.

[BondJmsBond]

Originally Posted by Oswald

Over 73,000 people marched through London on Sunday as part of the 'Football Lads Alliance March Against Extremism'. As usual the MSM chose to largely ignore this event. The only coverage came from the Saudi media owned "The Independent" who published blatant lies and smeared the participants.

You'd think this large a demonstration in London about such a subject would be MSM well covered. Nope. No ABC CBS NBC CNN or even BBC or FOX.

I did finally find it on MSN, who also largely questioned the validity of the march.

This again exposes the main stream media agenda.

[Devius]

Hackers from North Korea are reported to have stolen a large cache of military documents from South Korea, including a plan to assassinate North Korea's leader Kim Jong-un.

Rhee Cheol-hee, a South Korean lawmaker, said the information was from his country's defence ministry.

The compromised documents include wartime contingency plans drawn up by the US and South Korea.

They also include reports to the allies' senior commanders.

The South Korean defence ministry has so far refused to comment about the allegation.

Plans for the South's special forces were reportedly accessed, along with information on significant power plants and military facilities in the South.

Mr Rhee belongs to South Korea's ruling party, and sits on its parliament's defence committee. He said some 235 gigabytes of military documents had been stolen from the Defence Integrated Data Centre, and that 80% of them have yet to be identified.

The hack took place in September last year. In May, South Korea said a large amount of data had been stolen and that North Korea may have instigated the cyber attack - but gave no details of what was taken.

North Korea denied the claim.

Details:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41565281

[DTravel]

Originally Posted by vinceprince

Only saw some pictures and video, strangely absent of females and people of colour (don't they go to football now?)

IMO"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck"

[CARLTON BROWN]

Things I noticed this week: Brexit, Brexit, err Brexit and Brexit. Very exciting stuff :-)

[Brecht]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

While I agree that the Catalan PM deciding not to proclaim independence right away is a good thing, I have to say that the is some strange new definition of the word "reasonable" of which I was never previously aware. He thinks, forsooth, that Madrid should negotiate with him and be impressed by the outcome of a totally illegal referendum. I feel rather strongly that this sort of behaviour should not be rewarded; it reminds me of similar doings in Georgia and Ukraine, not to mention Konrad Henlein and the Sudetenland in 1938. Spain's government should flatly defy this wrongful behaviour and stand by the integrity of their country. One hopes that the "reasonable" Mr Puigdemont will step back from an extremely serious position. but there is no reason why Spain should yield an inch (centimetre) to the Catalan regional government under this sort of blackmail.

I happen to agree with most of your arguments on this issue except with your concept of treason.

The referendum in Catalonia was illegal according to Spanish law and the government has a right to counter it by all legal means. But its handling of the situation so far has been nothing but counterproductive. Sending out the Guardia Civil to intimidate voters led to the strengthening of the independence movement. Had the Spanish government been wiser, they'd let them have their referendum but with a clear official note that it's unconstitutional.

If anything, David Cameron did the right thing when he decided to let the Scottish have their referendum. This act on his part may have saved your country. However, by initiating the referendum to leave the EU, Cameron made it clear that he's only interested in saving himself. He failed but that's a different topic.

Let's get back to Catalonia. The main question here is: who'd be the main beneficiaries in an independent Catalonia and why is this happening now? Why not in the mid-2000s during the real estate and construction boom when Catalonia's capitalists made a fortune thanks to an influx of cheap labor from Eastern Europe? Well, that "golden age" is over and Spain was hit hard by the 2007 crisis from which it never really recovered. One of the grievances coming from the independence camp is that Catalonia is forced to pay much more than other Spanish regions. This kind of claim is typical for most separatist movements today. It's just another form of neoliberal thinking and nothing but the egotism of the wealthy regions. There are similar examples in Europe like Lombardy/Veneto/South Tyrol in Italy or Flanders in Belgium.

Ther per capita income in Catalonia is higher than in other Spanish regions by 20%. In Bavaria (Germany's wealthiest federal state), it's only 15% but Germany has a more balanced system of financial allocation and Bavaria has a say in the process. But Spain has a very centralized system and how much a region has to contribute and where that money is spent is decided by Madrid alone. I think that the independence movement has a legitimate claim in this matter but they should work on this together. Secession is not a solution and will hit Catalonia even harder. The Spanish and EU single markets are vital to its economy and should it secede from Spain, it will lose its membership in the EU and unhindered access to the Spanish market. Catalonia's economy and international position are not strong enough to survive these setbacks.

[scoundrel]

Napoleon I (the real Napoleon) used to say that you should never forbid something which you cannot prevent. That was the essence of the Spanish central government's tactical mistake in sending the Guardia Civil to Catalonia on "referendum" day. Unless you have enough men to shut down all the polling stations, then it is better not to try than to be seen to try and fail. But it is what it is and does not excuse the Catalan regional parliament for plotting an illegal declaration of independence.

At present the two sides are probably too polarised for a compromise to be achieved. An eventual settlement might look a lot like the much greater degree of autonomy which Spain allows its Basque province. But I cant see how this will happen in the present climate of opinion. The Catalans and the rest of Spain are not on good terms.

[chris chunt]

It's not just us who anticipate a good tug when an actress does a nude scene .
It's Hollywood execs in private screenings too .

Amazing listening to the story re told by someone who was there on radio 4s PM show this afternoon .
Catch up on I player if you missed it .

'Speed up to where she gets her tits out !! '
Tug tug

[Puhbear69]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Napoleon I (the real Napoleon) used to say that you should never forbid something which you cannot prevent. That was the essence of the Spanish central government's tactical mistake in sending the Guardia Civil to Catalonia on "referendum" day. Unless you have enough men to shut down all the polling stations, then it is better not to try than to be seen to try and fail. But it is what it is and does not excuse the Catalan regional parliament for plotting an illegal declaration of independence.

At present the two sides are probably too polarised for a compromise to be achieved. An eventual settlement might look a lot like the much greater degree of autonomy which Spain allows its Basque province. But I cant see how this will happen in the present climate of opinion. The Catalans and the rest of Spain are not on good terms.

And if there is no legal way in the purpose of the Spanish constitution for a declaration of independence ???
In my understanding of their constitution there is no other - no legal way.

Those boarders were in the history thoroughly flexible in Europe; through conquests and bloody wars. But those times are hopefully gone nowadays in Europe (beside some very bad examples). I prefer the way Vaclav Havel - the last president of Czechoslovakia and the first of Czechia - has gone for example.
(Info for the "Toupee" fraction here: Czechoslovakia or Czechia is not common/has nothing to do with Chechenia !!! )

I personally find the -delayed- decision of independence of the Catalan parliament selfish and and a bit silly, but it's not my turn to decide it, it's the turn of the Catalans.