Questions for our American friends

[9876543210]

lothian,

Originally Posted by lothian

I've recently been watching American guns and Sons of guns on Discovery and have seen ordinary citizens arm themselves with everything from assault rifles to grenade launchers , anti tank rockets , flame throwers , recoilless rifles mounted on jeeps and unbelievably fully automatic heavy machine guns mounted on a helicopter . i know it varies from to state to state but is this true ? can Joe public really own and be allowed to use this stuff ?

I was flipping through the channels tonight and ran across one of the shows you mentioned so decided to check it out. I think these people were from Georgia and the episode dealt partly with buying an old Confederate pistol and another with purchasing an M41 US built light tank? WTF! I can understand the pistol but a tank? Decided to do a bit of research.

The US used to have a law banning such sales which was enacted in 1994 during the Clinton administration. It expired on September 13, 2004 under GWB's watch. I'm no expert here but it seems the law mainly dealt with small arms and if they were capable of automatic fire. All automatic weapons (for the most part) were banned. Here's a Wikipedia on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...lt_Weapons_Ban

How tanks and flame throwers are involved with this I don't know but it seems that it now depends on State laws. Well, I don't know where exactly I'd find one but I'd love to have a .50 cal. machine gun. That would be tons of fun but I hear the ammo is pretty darn expensive.

[lothian]

Originally Posted by 9876543210

lothian,



I was flipping through the channels tonight and ran across one of the shows you mentioned so decided to check it out. I think these people were from Georgia and the episode dealt partly with buying an old Confederate pistol and another with purchasing an M41 US built light tank? WTF! I can understand the pistol but a tank? Decided to do a bit of research.

The US used to have a law banning such sales which was enacted in 1994 during the Clinton administration. It expired on September 13, 2004 under GWB's watch. I'm no expert here but it seems the law mainly dealt with small arms and if they were capable of automatic fire. All automatic weapons (for the most part) were banned. Here's a Wikipedia on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...lt_Weapons_Ban

How tanks and flame throwers are involved with this I don't know but it seems that it now depends on State laws. Well, I don't know where exactly I'd find one but I'd love to have a .50 cal. machine gun. That would be tons of fun but I hear the ammo is pretty darn expensive.

I had a look through the Web for a definitive answer but their seems to be as many answers as their are posters . Some suggest that ownership is possible ( in some States ) but with so many restrictions that you'd have to be a very wealthy fanatic will a clean mental health and criminal history to acheive it.
You apparently need a bag full of licences , permits etc . Very expensive insurance. ( The figure of $ 250,000 was mentioned ) Big restrictions on movement and transfer of said weapons and places you can use them. Plus frequent police and Bureau of Alcohol ,Firearms , Tobacco and Explosives checks including being fingerprinted. Although its not made clear in the TV progs I assume that many of the owners are people who run the sort of ranges where for a big price you can express your inner Rambo by banging off a few mortar rounds or hosing down a derelict car with a .50 cal.

[ubu_roi]

Originally Posted by 9876543210

I think these people were from Georgia and the episode dealt partly with buying an old Confederate pistol and another with purchasing an M41 US built light tank? WTF! I can understand the pistol but a tank? Decided to do a bit of research.

The US used to have a law banning such sales which was enacted in 1994 during the Clinton administration. It expired on September 13, 2004 under GWB's watch.

Actually, the now-defunct 1994 weapons law had nothing to do with full-auto weapons, it was semi-automatics. Full-auto waepons were addressed by the National Firearms Act of 1934, which remains in effect to this day - in states that permit it, a person with no criminal or mental health record can purchase a full-auto firearm after clearing an FBI background check. My state allows it.

The full-auto guns have to have been made before May of 1986; guns made after that date are not available to civilians.

Some states have their own paperwork mazes to make it harder, and some don't allow private citizens to own full-auto firearms at all.

You can buy a "deactivated" tank (modified so it won't fire ammo) with no problems; if you want a working machine gun on it said gun is subject to the above restrictions, and as far as the cannon, I believe it's considered a "destructive device" which falls under the same 1934 Act (which also regulated short-barreled shotguns and rifles).

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by lothian

I had a look through the Web for a definitive answer but their seems to be as many answers as their are posters . Some suggest that ownership is possible ( in some States ) but with so many restrictions that you'd have to be a very wealthy fanatic will a clean mental health and criminal history to acheive it.
You apparently need a bag full of licences , permits etc .

You need a Class III license. Its expensive, and you'll pay through the nose for the weapon -- which has to have been manufactured before 1986. There are a few specialty dealers catering to this business. You have to be in a very gun-friendly State, and on good terms with the authorities as the police have to smile on this. . . it is not "as of right" to purchase, as are other firearms

Here's a well known dealer:

http://www.westernfirearms.com/

They've got a page describing what you have to do to purchase:
http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc?set=02&sz=800x600

[9876543210]

deepsepia,

Originally Posted by deepsepia

You need a Class III license. Its expensive, and you'll pay through the nose for the weapon -- which has to have been manufactured before 1986. There are a few specialty dealers catering to this business. You have to be in a very gun-friendly State, and on good terms with the authorities as the police have to smile on this. . . it is not "as of right" to purchase, as are other firearms

Here's a well known dealer:

http://www.westernfirearms.com/

They've got a page describing what you have to do to purchase:
http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc?set=02&sz=800x600

Thanks for the info but something about this really needs clarification. I read both articles and they make it pretty clear that getting these weapons is not that big of a deal if you're willing to put up with the paperwork. OK, pretty much expected when dealing with federal rules.

What I'm having difficulty believing is their assertion that these weapons are "rare". Its obvious why they say it as it drives up the price for those who don't have a clue. But I can guarantee you these weapons are not rare. Far from it. I'd be willing to bet that, if I really wanted to and had the funds, I could find them within a couple of days pretty simply. And as long as I can come up with some type of bogus info which says the weapon was made before 1986, I can make it legal.

I think if you look at whats happening south of the border you'd find that most of the automatic weapons used down there by the drug cartels are from the US.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by 9876543210

What I'm having difficulty believing is their assertion that these weapons are "rare". Its obvious why they say it as it drives up the price for those who don't have a clue. But I can guarantee you these weapons are not rare. Far from it. I'd be willing to bet that, if I really wanted to and had the funds, I could find them within a couple of days pretty simply. And as long as I can come up with some type of bogus info which says the weapon was made before 1986, I can make it legal.

I think if you look at whats happening south of the border you'd find that most of the automatic weapons used down there by the drug cartels are from the US.

Well, legal automatics are not "rare" if you're prepared to lie about it.

But that puts you into legal jeopardy.

There's a very strict carve-out for weapons manufactured before 1986. Your license is for a particular weapon, specific serial number. You don't mess around with it, because if you were, for example, to misrepresent a modern weapon, you'd be committing a Federal crime.

There's a very big trade in semi-automatic weapons, which can be modified (illegally) for automatic fire. But again, this puts you in violation of Federal firearms laws.

Having bogus paperwork would make it even worse. . . so if you want to legally own a fully automatic weapon, it had better _really_ be what its registered as.

[9876543210]

deepsepia,

A few years ago I was living in another city (actually on its outskirts) and a friend came over with a friend of his. This guy had an old Thompson .45 which, I think, was full auto. It had the straight clip (maybe 30 rounds) but could be modified for the drum. I don't remember exactly but I think it was probably illegal. And I seem to remember the guy could get just about whatever you wanted. Probably should have taken him up on it but I really wasn't into it back then.

From what I hear it pretty easy to find stuff like that at some of the local shows though.

[deepsepia]

Originally Posted by 9876543210

From what I hear it pretty easy to find stuff like that at some of the local shows though.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

At gun shows, you can buy a gun, and then walk down the aisle and have someone show you how to modify it to fully auto.

One guy I know does a trick to "bump fire" them . . . seems very close to full auto.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by lothian

...I assume that many of the owners are people who run the sort of ranges where for a big price you can express your inner Rambo by banging off a few mortar rounds or hosing down a derelict car with a .50 cal.

Makes sense to keep them at a range. You can't easily transport a weapon that big, except on a vehicle. Otherwise you need at least three men, and you couldn't carry it in public, unless you were in Afghanistan or Chechnya, or maybe Texas

We used to use dushkas (about the same as 50 cal). Great fun, but you need long ranges, and hard targets like old tanks or steel sheet. Trace burnout is about 2.000 meters, so that's usually the 'practical limit' unless you have someone with super-optics who can see where the stuff is landing. But the rounds can go about 7.000 meters, if nothing stops them

Here's one version of a dushka:





To keep this American, even Rambo liked dushkas:

[billybunter]

Can I ask, why do you need guns? Americans will recoil at this. I know it's written in your constitution. But I can't understand this obsession with firearms.