The Military History Thread

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Well, I didn't know about it at the time. That came later. But I remember when Stalin died, and that was before Suez. I was only seven, but my family were all Party-members, and we were all in a daze for weeks

That's how I remember it, anyway

There is a rather drily amusing and good natured series of short stories, often collectively referred to as The Little World of Don Camillo, written by Giovanni Guereschi. The village priest, Don Camillo, and the Communist mayor, Peppone, are under a professional duty to be at daggers drawn with one another but (though its a guilty secret for both of them) they see eye to eye on many issues because they both have the welfare of the village at heart. There is one particular story I really remember, where the Italian Communist Party denounces Stalin and declares that Stalin was a frightful rotter and all good Communists must revile his memory. Peppone finds himself in a very lonely position because he cannot bring himself to follow the party line; he just isn't that big a hypocrite. Of all people it is the priest who understands and who respects his integrity, and who helps Peppone out by making some fierce anti-Communist sermons to divert the attention of the local Party from the fact that Peppone hasn't taken Uncle Joe's picture down.

[Mal Hombre]

Originally Posted by palo5

Well, I didn't know about it at the time. That came later. But I remember when Stalin died, and that was before Suez. I was only seven, but my family were all Party-members, and we were all in a daze for weeks

That's how I remember it, anyway

Then, The party that had told You to revere Comrade Stalin,Told You to stop mourning because He was suddenly a very bad man...

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Mal Hombre

Then, The party that had told You to revere Comrade Stalin,Told You to stop mourning because He was suddenly a very bad man...

Yes, change came suddenly. Like when you discovered your king was not appointed by god, and you cut off his head

But 350 years or so later you still don't respect the will of the majority of your people, and are governed by a party with 25% of the vote

So aside from attacking almost every country on the planet in the meantime, which is recorded in military history, do you think you have made progress?

[VintageWomble]

Can we not just gather round a fire, drink ale and debate old obscure wars from centuries ago without getting all political? -Still, that wouldn't be much fun now would it?

[Ernesto75]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

There is a rather drily amusing and good natured series of short stories, often collectively referred to as The Little World of Don Camillo, written by Giovanni Guereschi. The village priest, Don Camillo, and the Communist mayor, Peppone, are under a professional duty to be at daggers drawn with one another but (though its a guilty secret for both of them) they see eye to eye on many issues because they both have the welfare of the village at heart. There is one particular story I really remember, where the Italian Communist Party denounces Stalin and declares that Stalin was a frightful rotter and all good Communists must revile his memory. Peppone finds himself in a very lonely position because he cannot bring himself to follow the party line; he just isn't that big a hypocrite. Of all people it is the priest who understands and who respects his integrity, and who helps Peppone out by making some fierce anti-Communist sermons to divert the attention of the local Party from the fact that Peppone hasn't taken Uncle Joe's picture down.

These short stories also lead to a series of movies whose first dates back to 1952.

The main actors were Fernandel as the priest and Gino Cervi as the mayor.

There was plenty of good humoured scenes and the films were very popular.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Yes, change came suddenly. Like when you discovered your king was not appointed by god, and you cut off his head

But 350 years or so later you still don't respect the will of the majority of your people, and are governed by a party with 25% of the vote

So aside from attacking almost every country on the planet in the meantime, which is recorded in military history, do you think you have made progress?

As you will know yourself, progress is not immutable; it is generally two steps forward and one step back. Russia has made progress as compared with the days before glasnost and perestroika; but she has seen many dark days along the road. Britain also has traced a long road and it goes back further than Charles I, whose head and body required separate maintenance after he had pushed his luck further than it could go. We are not perfect, but we have civil peace and a stable democracy in which we get rid of unpopular governments and no one gets hurt. Charles I was impossible to get rid of, so in the end we were left with nowhere to go except to kill him. You had the same issue with the Romanov dynasty; and now Mr Putin generally polls in the 70% vicinity IIRC.

Its not the people who vote who count; its the people who count the votes.

But in fairness I actually think Mr Putin wins fair and square.

Anne Shirley:At least I don't need to cheat to pass the test, not like Josephine Pye.
Diana Barry: But Josephine doesn't have to cheat. She would pass the test just the same.
Anne: But...why does she cheat then?
Diana: Because she's a Pye.

Governing Russia is not an easy gig and Santa Claus wouldn't cut it. I would probably vote for Mr Putin simply because he has a proven track record in booting arse and that's part of the job. When Russia is a more peaceful and prosperous country, as well as retaining the vote, and when power changes hands peacefully not once but time after time and with no one feeling surprised it was peaceful, and when your wealthy elite feels safe to reinvest profits inside Russia rather than exporting the capital here which you need there, then you will be in a similar place to us and your criticism will impress me more than it presently does.

[Ennath]

August 15, 1057
Battle of Lumphanan

In the 11th century, Scotland remained divided into warring fiefdoms and regional kingdoms, ruled primarily by Scots-Gaelic kings and lords, and the Dano-Norse Viking descendants who still held territory in Scotland, including Orkney and the Western Isles. Many of these kingdoms were entirely autonomous from the rule of the Kings. Many of the Dano-Norse jarls and Northumbria/Cumbria (England) earls were at constant war with the Scottish lords, who in turn frequently challenged the rule of the King of Alba (Scotland). Regicide, and rebellion were the rule, not the exception. Hereditary rights meant little to the lords and kings of Scotland during this era, with usurpation becoming one of the very critical components to early Scottish history in 10th and 11th centuries.

In August of 1040, Macbeth usurped the throne and killed his longtime rival King Duncan I. The King, a usurper himself, led an army north into Macbeth’s kingdom but was defeated slain outside Elgin (Pitvageny, Morayshire), winning the bloody crown of Alba for himself.

Very little is known about the real King Macbeth who is most certainly one of the more infamous and yet unaccomplished monarchs in Scottish history. Made immortal by Shakespeare’s famous “Scottish play”, the now famous character of Macbeth, Thane of Glamis & Thane of Cawdor and later King from the play is a highly fictionalized and inaccurate caricature, borrowing very little from the real life and reign of Macbeth, Lord of Moray and King of Alba (Scotland), 1040-1057. What is known is that he was born around 1005 to Finlay, Mormaer (high steward) of Moray. Some scholars agree that Macbeth was most certainly a grandson of Malcolm II, King of Alba, 1005-1034, making his claim to the throne very much a valid one. Throughout his long life and reign as Mormaer of Moray, Finlay had always held a desire for control over all of northern Scotland and was eventually murdered by his nephews sometime in 1020.

Macbeth killed Duncan’s father and 180 of his men during the Revolt of Crínan in 1045. He made a pilgrimage to Rome in 1050, known for his piety. In 1052, Macbeth was involved indirectly in the strife in England between Godwin, Earl of Wessex and Edward the Confessor when he received a number of Norman exiles from England in his court, perhaps becoming the first king of Scots to introduce feudalism to Scotland.

Eventually Macbeth’s usurpation did come back to haunt him when Duncan’s son, Prince Malcolm Canmore with the help of his uncle Siward, Earl of Northumbria, invaded Scotland with an allied English, Scottish, and Scandinavian army. Siward’s armies met Macbeth’s at Dunsinane Hill in July 1054 smashing Macbeth’s host, forcing the king and his forces to withdraw north. Though Siward had mauled Macbeth’s army, he had lost heavily in the battle including his eldest son and many of his huscarls(household retainers). Despite this great defeat, Macbeth still held on to power as King of Alba.

This first invasion of Macbeth’s kingdom lost steam shortly after the Battle of Dunsinane with Siward’s death in 1055. However, in 1057, Malcom and his allies returned. On August 15, Macbeth and about 370 mounted retainers retreated over the Cairnamounth Pass on the north side of the Mounth. At or near the Peelring of Lumphanan, near Essie, they were ambushed by Malcom’s army. Macbeth was either found amongst the dead on the battlefield by Prince Malcolm or captured and summarily executed immediately after the end of the skirmish. Malcolm would not be able to take the title of King of Alba until a year later in 1058 after the death of Macbeth's stepson and heir Lulach.

[Dr Pepper]

I always knew Macbeth was hard done by, by Shakespeare! As I recall his claim to the throne (the real Macbeth) was considerably stronger than the real Duncan's......but thanks to Shakespeare the world views him as a traitorous usurper who got his deserved comeuppance.....!

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

I always knew Macbeth was hard done by, by Shakespeare! As I recall his claim to the throne (the real Macbeth) was considerably stronger than the real Duncan's......but thanks to Shakespeare the world views him as a traitorous usurper who got his deserved comeuppance.....!

They didn't really do "legal" in Scotland in the 11th Century. You claimed the throne by force of arms and your claim was valid if you could ram it down the throats of your rivals; otherwise, not. Not many kings of Scotland died in their sleep, unless someone stabbed them as Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are depicted in the play.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by Dr Pepper

I always knew Macbeth was hard done by, by Shakespeare! As I recall his claim to the throne (the real Macbeth) was considerably stronger than the real Duncan's......but thanks to Shakespeare the world views him as a traitorous usurper who got his deserved comeuppance.....!

Ah, but the play is one of the great achievements of the playwright's art. Bless you, Willie Shakespeare.