Current Politics in the United Kingdom - Page 350

**hoss** · March 19th, 2018, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haroldeye

I wasn't asking for more supranational representation, the whole lot of them can be made redundant tomorrow and the cost savings used for something sensible.

The topic of democratic legitimation was brought up as an argument against the EU institutions. Now that I explain that this argument can be turned around to defend the EU institutions, you call it insignificant.
This means to me that this argument was a feint from the beginning.
As concerns the cost savings, the economic benefits far outweigh the costs. You will lose the benefits too which means you will lose more than you win.

**palo5** · March 19th, 2018, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Hoss mate. The EU Parliament has all the power of a wet fart. It is not mean't to have power but to be there to rubber stamp the Commission. The centre of power in the EU is the Commission and the ECJ.

Sorry, my friend, clearly you have zero understanding of this

The EU Parliament can block any EU legislation, and can sack the entire EU Commission

If a "wet fart" can do that, do not underestimate wet farts

**scoundrel** · March 19th, 2018, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palo5

Sorry, my friend, clearly you have zero understanding of this

The EU Parliament can block any EU legislation, and can sack the entire EU Commission

If a "wet fart" can do that, do not underestimate wet farts

Can it remove or even discipline individual Commissioners such as might have been Edith Cresson? Can it initiate or even amend legislation, as opposed to proposing amendments which the Council of Ministers can just ignore? Can it make decisions on EU policy aims or hold the executive to account as national legislatures are supposed to do?

If not, then it is in fact a nothing chamber, Wank Club on salaries and expenses.

**hoss** · March 20th, 2018, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Can it remove or even discipline individual Commissioners such as might have been Edith Cresson? Can it initiate or even amend legislation, as opposed to proposing amendments which the Council of Ministers can just ignore? Can it make decisions on EU policy aims or hold the executive to account as national legislatures are supposed to do?

The EP approves the Commission as a whole, so the commission will not be approved if the EP rejects individual commissioners. That way the EP has in fact more influence on the composition of the Commission than national parliaments have on the composition of their governments. On a national level, the heads of state are elected by the parliament but the ministers are simply appointed without any parliamentary consultation.
The EP can initiate legislation only indirectly by making recommendations to the Commission. The EP as well as the Council can amend or reject legislative propositions made by the Commission, so like on a national level, a law has to be approved by both chambers of the legislative.

**Wendigo** · March 20th, 2018, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ********

Davis sold out the Brexiteers, and a good thing too. He had to agree to pretty much everything, including the fall back to a hard border on the island of Ireland if the UK can't come up with a better solution, which would mean the DUP withdrawing support and the governmetn collapsing.

Gibraltar is still subject to a Spanish veto. The still has to please Spain or lose the entire Brexit deal.

As predicted, the UK's hand is extremely weak and there are no secret trump cards. The EU gave a few minor concessions and we gave huge ones.

Both sides are clearly saying there are still matters open to discussion. If you read posts of many of the Brexit supporters here you will know we never expected to get all we wanted, negotiations are never like that. We always said we wanted a deal that was fair to both sides, you as a 100% proof Europhile will lap up every word from them as gospel as soon as you hear it. I am a realist, the devil is in the detail so let's see what the two sides agree next week. Next week I will be in both Spain and Gibraltar and spending Euros freely as I have nothing against the population of Europe.

After 40 years we are now close to what many of us have wanted for years, what we have is an imminent agreement to separate us from the EU. Sure it will take time and I fully accept that.

As for Gibraltar it looks like the Spanish are being far more practical than you

Spain gives Brexit GREEN LIGHT: Spanish will not HOLD Gibraltar 'hostage' in negotiations
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...altar-spain-uk
http://chronicle.gi/2018/03/dastis-h...stance-on-gib/

**scoundrel** · March 20th, 2018, 08:57 PM

There have been developments outside the world of Brexit which have affected both Britain and Spain and possibly brought us a little bit closer together as allies in a broader context. Except for Ms Sturgeon and the SNP, British opinion was in total solidarity with the Spanish government and against the Catalonian separatists. Most British people considered the Catalan declaration to be disloyal and selfish behaviour, rather alike to that of certain people closer to home. Meanwhile Spain has been one amongst many who have reacted with calm, polite revulsion to the Novichok attack on British soil. Everyone has been reminded of the need to maintain ties of friendship and cooperation in order to increase our national security against rogue states such as the Russian Federation.

Britain is leaving the EU but she isn't leaving Europe and is trying to maintain friendly relations, in spite of sometimes very trying and petty behaviour from some EU spokespeople. But Britain is positioning herself in a world where the economic centre of gravity is moving away from Europe and towards the Far East. Britain has an advantage with her historic ties in various growing markets which in the past she has not properly used to best effect, but separating from the EU will assist her there; paradoxically it may also make Britain useful to the EU as a point of contact and/or intermediary. Incidentally, Spain has strong historic ties with the Far East as well; and a stronger bilateral relationship between Britain and Spain has a lot of potential advantages for both of us.

It may be that our quarrel over Gibraltar can be set aside if this suits everyone well enough.

**haroldeye** · March 21st, 2018, 08:32 PM

Are you suggesting that Scoundrel is a liar.

No we are leaving.

**seany65** · March 21st, 2018, 10:29 PM

Juts to add my little voice to this: I've never heard anyone mention the Catalan vote and declaration nor the Spanish govts. reactions to it. Could this be because few brits actually cared, or few brits thought it was any of our business?

I don't care either way as it's none of my business, although I do think the Spanish Govt. has been a little heavy handed.

I personally think Brexit won't happen or if it does it will be such a 'soft' Brexit that it might as well not have happened.

**scoundrel** · March 22nd, 2018, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seany65

Juts to add my little voice to this: I've never heard anyone mention the Catalan vote and declaration nor the Spanish govts. reactions to it. Could this be because few brits actually cared, or few brits thought it was any of our business?

I don't care either way as it's none of my business, although I do think the Spanish Govt. has been a little heavy handed.

I personally think Brexit won't happen or if it does it will be such a 'soft' Brexit that it might as well not have happened.

Just to be quite clear, I was discussing the actual declaration of independence rather than the referendum vote, in which there was a violent and incompetent failed attempt by the Spanish national police to shut the vote down. No one anywhere recognised Catalan independence and quite rightly so. The SNP made noises about how the Catalan people have the right to determine their own future which probably did not play well with the Spanish government, but the SNP did not actually support the declaration and as far as I know no one else did, anywhere. The British government, which has separatist issues of its own, was one of the first ones to state it did not recognise Catalonia as a nation.

blueboy199 · March 22nd, 2018, 11:01 PM

the EU one in particular would be reverse now that peolpe have realized they were hoodwinked or simply died of old age.

This one always amuses me. You do realise the whole population ages, not just the older generation? And that your beliefs and opinions change as you grow older and wiser, and develop the confidence to trust your own judgement through your experiences of life.

Perhaps you just need a few more years, mate.

March 20th, 2018, 08:57 PM	#3496
scoundrel Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: England Posts: 26,246 Thanks: 162,421 Thanked 278,573 Times in 26,191 Posts	There have been developments outside the world of Brexit which have affected both Britain and Spain and possibly brought us a little bit closer together as allies in a broader context. Except for Ms Sturgeon and the SNP, British opinion was in total solidarity with the Spanish government and against the Catalonian separatists. Most British people considered the Catalan declaration to be disloyal and selfish behaviour, rather alike to that of certain people closer to home. Meanwhile Spain has been one amongst many who have reacted with calm, polite revulsion to the Novichok attack on British soil. Everyone has been reminded of the need to maintain ties of friendship and cooperation in order to increase our national security against rogue states such as the Russian Federation. Britain is leaving the EU but she isn't leaving Europe and is trying to maintain friendly relations, in spite of sometimes very trying and petty behaviour from some EU spokespeople. But Britain is positioning herself in a world where the economic centre of gravity is moving away from Europe and towards the Far East. Britain has an advantage with her historic ties in various growing markets which in the past she has not properly used to best effect, but separating from the EU will assist her there; paradoxically it may also make Britain useful to the EU as a point of contact and/or intermediary. Incidentally, Spain has strong historic ties with the Far East as well; and a stronger bilateral relationship between Britain and Spain has a lot of potential advantages for both of us. It may be that our quarrel over Gibraltar can be set aside if this suits everyone well enough. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

March 21st, 2018, 10:29 PM	#3498
seany65 Vintage Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 3,652 Thanks: 80,476 Thanked 32,738 Times in 3,528 Posts	Juts to add my little voice to this: I've never heard anyone mention the Catalan vote and declaration nor the Spanish govts. reactions to it. Could this be because few brits actually cared, or few brits thought it was any of our business? I don't care either way as it's none of my business, although I do think the Spanish Govt. has been a little heavy handed. I personally think Brexit won't happen or if it does it will be such a 'soft' Brexit that it might as well not have happened. __________________ <-- That's Emer Kenny and I want to be stuck in her front bottom. Quote from electrofreak : I'd rather have questions that can't be answered, than answers that can't be questioned.

March 21st, 2018, 08:32 PM	#3497
haroldeye Moderator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Halfwitistan Posts: 5,716 Thanks: 113,551 Thanked 59,974 Times in 5,708 Posts	Are you suggesting that Scoundrel is a liar. No we are leaving.

March 22nd, 2018, 11:01 PM	#3500
blueboy199 Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Manchester Posts: 27 Thanks: 25,911 Thanked 196 Times in 25 Posts	the EU one in particular would be reverse now that peolpe have realized they were hoodwinked or simply died of old age. This one always amuses me. You do realise the whole population ages, not just the older generation? And that your beliefs and opinions change as you grow older and wiser, and develop the confidence to trust your own judgement through your experiences of life. Perhaps you just need a few more years, mate.