Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[hoss]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

If our skins are thin, we do need to show restraint towards others in our turn.

I put it to you, Hoss, that you have asserted the superior democratic credentials of the European Commission on rather specious grounds. When Blueboy described your argument as "disingenuous" he has a point. If you are offended this is a problem for you to deal with and no one else, because he has made a fair (and IMHO courteous and restrained) challenge to an argument you have advanced.

I don´t mind my arguments being challenged, I mind having my honesty questioned.
I did not state that the credentials of the European Commission are superior to others but I refused the statement that the institutions of the EU are lacking democratic legitimation.

[seany65]

Originally Posted by hoss

(1) "What if" is not planning, it is gambling. That is exactly what I meant. You simply don´t gamble with the welfare of a whole nation.

(2) So Britain was not the only imperial power. Does that make my point invalid? I think not.

(1) But isn't this "what if" stuff what was being done by Ted Heath when he took us into the 'EEC'? Was he not thinking about "What if I don't take Britain in? What if I do take Britain in?"

Isn't this "What if" stuff exactly what so many people want the govt. to do when they expect the govt. to plan out what will happen in case of this type of deal or that type of deal or another type of deal?

Isn't this "what if stuff" part of making plans, of any description, so that you may have some idea of what to expect should various things happen?

(2) No, it does not make your point less valid, but you did say Britain was at the spearhead of imperialism, which it wasn't which was what I was pointing out.

[hoss]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Frankly I prefer the UK system, my local MP has an office in the town, my nearest Euro MP is based over 50 miles away, the shortest path is therefore A short walk to my constituency MP, an MP I did not vote for but who will still act on my behalf if requested, that's how democracy works.

No, that´s how tribalism works.

[hoss]

Originally Posted by seany65

(1) But isn't this "what if" stuff what was being done by Ted Heath when he took us into the 'EEC'? Was he not thinking about "What if I don't take Britain in? What if I do take Britain in?"

Isn't this "What if" stuff exactly what so many people want the govt. to do when they expect the govt. to plan out what will happen in case of this type of deal or that type of deal or another type of deal?

Isn't this "what if stuff" part of making plans, of any description, so that you may have some idea of what to expect should various things happen?

If you put it this way, I absolutely agree. But as I see it, the Brexit referendum was initiated by politicians who were sure the result would be a "stay" vote and who did not have any plans in case of a "leave" vote. In my opinion this lack of planning shows that the anti-EU propaganda never had a serious political foundation. It was simply the old blame game that was played in a similar way in almost all EU member states: If something goes wrong, blame it on EU bureaucracy! If something goes right, praise the national politicians!

[hoss]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

By what moral authority do voters in Germany and France exercise rights and power over me in my own country?

I don´t know if it is a moral authority, but it is the authority of law. Your country joined a supranational organization and commited itself to accept the rules of that organization.

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by hoss

I don´t know if it is a moral authority, but it is the authority of law.

So what are they going to do? Send a policeman to arrest us?

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by hoss

No, that´s how tribalism works.

Sooner a member of the British tribe than a tiny cog in the EU collective. If having a strong desire for a local voice is wrong in your eyes then I'm happy for you to consider me wrong.

[haroldeye]

My country joined a trading block and a customs union. That's what we were told and that's what I and many others voted for. The fact is that we were lied too, and the whole pile of ordure was based on lies.

As to Democracy and the EU attitude to it:

Sir James Goldsmith, speaking to the Federation of Small Businesses in Newcastle, 27.6.96
Mr Claude Cheysson, former French Foreign Secretary and member of the European Commission, stated that the Europe of Maastricht "could", I quote, "only have been created in the absence of democracy". He went on to say that public debate would be counterproductive.

Mr Raymond Barre, former French Prime Minister and also a former Commissioner, said when discussing the construction of the European Union "I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account"

[hoss]

Originally Posted by otokonomidori

So what are they going to do? Send a policeman to arrest us?

Yes, we´ll send a German policeman across the Channel in a rubber dinghy to put all of Britain under arrest.

[hoss]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Sooner a member of the British tribe than a tiny cog in the EU collective. If having a strong desire for a local voice is wrong in your eyes then I'm happy for you to consider me wrong.

I don´t think your desire for a local voice is wrong. I think your refusal of being part of a larger collective is wrong. And Britain was a major player, not a tiny cog.