Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Logical really why should someone who votes for what is a nationalist pro independence party want freedom from the UK where they have a very loud voice but be willing to accept being a member of a bloated EU where they would be on a par with the likes of Denmark, Finland & Slovakia.

Don't expect logic from the supporters of the SNP - it is like a religious cult .

The majority of the SNPs votes come from ignorant, illiterate guttersnipes who haven't got a pot to piss in, think they have nothing to lose by leaving the Union and are being manipulated by the leaders of the SNP

[Wendigo]

Scare mongering has now gone to the top table

UK EU exit would be global economy 'shock' - G20 leaders
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35677385

A UK exit would be an idictment of the EU's inability to put its points forward as to why Britain is better staying

I remember being told in the 1980's and 1990's as many of us objected to the organisation we voted to join in 1975, we were told that the EEC (remember that ) had always intended to move towards a European state, that fact was never made known to the public and I have no faith that the EU mandarins have not got some similar plans up their sleeves. It all comes down to who I trust more, so far I trust neither side but on past performances I'm veering towards an out vote unless I learn of something positive from the EU.

The referendum question in 1975 was simply
Do you think that the United Kingdom should remain part of the European Community (the Common Market)? YES or NO

The Common Market we voted to stay in by 67% to 33% has morphed over the years into the EU, a top heavy shambling bureaucratic monolith that is resistant to change and slow to act on important matters.

The ball is in their court.

[G-Type]

Given that I am not a resident of the UK, I have hesitated (on purpose) to join this discussion/thread until now. I can just imagine of how it may look if a non-resident argues his points in that very particular case...so please bear with me

Originally Posted by Wendigo

....we were told that the EEC (remember that ) had always intended to move towards a European state, that fact was never made known to the public and I have no faith that the EU mandarins have not got some similar plans up their sleeves.
...
The Common Market we voted to stay in by 67% to 33% has morphed over the years into the EU, a top heavy shambling bureaucratic monolith that is resistant to change and slow to act on important matters.

The reason I joined this discussion is that (having read some other entries) I meanwhile have the impression that the original idea of the EU has apparently not been transmitted entirely to the UK-people.

It has always been the final goal to have a Community who is more than just an agglomeration of economic powers and to facilitate the exchange of goods and services. IMHO, the phrase "United States of Europe" does best portray the original intention behind. That was the ultimate approach for EU.

Most probably, numerous states (and especially some new members in the Eastern parts of Europe) still do see the EU as mainly an economic agglomeration of which each nation gets the best (monetary) benefit.

An economic crisis like the one at Greece was considerably quickly solved (negotiated upon) because all was centered around money.

If only this human crisis/desaster of the refugees could also be discussed/negotiated similarly. It does not. Why? Because a united approach may cost and -moreover- taking refugees may bring social problems.

But exactly issues like these and a commonly shared solution is what the original idea of the EU originally was

I can´t judge for the people in the UK. The only thing I say is: Many countries here are vividly hoping that the UK stays within that community. This is not only visible by the concessions towards the UK were/have being made recently, it´s just the understanding of a European State as we see it. A community of human values, economics and powers.

Originally Posted by Wendigo

The ball is in their court.

No Mate, the ball is in your court now. All has been done to transform/adapt/evolve the EU also to your likings.

It´s the UK who needs to decide now, weighing minutiously the pro´s and con´s developping from this irrevocable decision. Speaking of me, I do hope that you stay with us

In order not to bias the poll, I of course have abstained from voting
.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by G-Type

No Mate, the ball is in your court now. All has been done to transform/adapt/evolve the EU also to your likings.

It´s the UK who needs to decide now, weighing minutiously the pro´s and con´s developping from this irrevocable decision. Speaking of me, I do hope that you stay with us .

If there is any truth in what you say that the EU has gone as far as it wants then we have to accept that the EU is already on a course for its ultimate goal, on that basis my vote would be for OUT. The British people were misled by the STAY campaign in the original 1975 referendum and I have not seen anything since then to convince me that I can trust them. I don't trust my own or any Government either as all have long term agendas that we are not privy to but we can vote our own leaders out every five years if we wish.

If by your you mean the British public then we will decide soon as a whole and whatever the result is I will be satisfied that it is the will of the people; if by your you mean mine as an individual then the EU is some way from what I would want. I actually want less in the way of concessions and more in the way of openness and honesty.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

...we can vote our own leaders out every five years if we wish

You can get a change if you're lucky

Not wishing to start an (old) argument, because I realize you like it that way. But we all know your governments almost never represent a majority -- usually 60-70% actually vote against them, or don't vote at all. You might as well toss a coin and wish for luck

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by palo5

You can get a change if you're lucky

Not wishing to start an (old) argument, because I realize you like it that way. But we all know your governments almost never represent a majority -- usually 60-70% actually vote against them, or don't vote at all. You might as well toss a coin and wish for luck

Let's leave that old chestnut for dead Palo as neither of us accept the other's position, it is a solely UK issue, it works here and more important it has no bearing on this thread's subject and only serves to muddy the waters.

[G-Type]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

...as neither of us accept the other's position, it is a solely UK issue, it works here and more important it has no bearing on this thread's subject and only serves to muddy the waters.

Originally Posted by Wendigo

...
If by your you mean the British public then we will decide soon as a whole and whatever the result is I will be satisfied that it is the will of the people; if by your you mean mine as an individual then the EU is some way from what I would want. I actually want less in the way of concessions and more in the way of openness and honesty.

I should have known better...

My reply has never been intended to muddy the waters or to hurt your feelings. If I did, I herewith apologize.

You´re right. It´s a UK issue.

I was wrong to reply at all. Sorry!

P.S. When saying "your", I adressed the UK as a whole and not you, Wendigo, in particular.
.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by G-Type

I should have known better...

My reply has never been intended to muddy the waters or to hurt your feelings. If I did, I herewith apologize.

You´re right. It´s a UK issue.

I was wrong to reply at all. Sorry!

P.S. When saying "your", I adressed the UK as a whole and not you, Wendigo, in particular.
.

Absolutely no problem at all G, the first quote you make actually refers solely to my reply to Palo who has a long standing gripe with the UK election process. I just didn't want that to start up again here.

Just one example of what I want the STAY campaign to clarify is the simple matter of the EU accounts.
Now we all should accept the larger the budget the harder it is to account for every Euro spent. I do not expect any large organisation to account for every brass farthing but there is a long standing claim that the EU accounts have not been signed off for decades.

See the likes of this
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-spending.html

However, I also see this
http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-a...ans-37130.html
and
https://fullfact.org/europe/has-eu-b...past-18-years/

Both cannot be true, the LibDems do have a pro EU bias however I expect the actual facts to be correct.

This is the sort of issue I refer to about openness and clarity.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Let's leave that old chestnut for dead Palo as neither of us accept the other's position, it is a solely UK issue, it works here and more important it has no bearing on this thread's subject and only serves to muddy the waters.

I should have guessed you'd say something like that. However, since Britain's "problem" with the EU is one of sovereignty, and you don't give yourselves much at home anyway, I don't think it's off-topic

It's also not off-topic to say that while you have difficulty with the EU over sovereignty, you have no trouble at all surrendering sovereignty in over 700 international trade deals, not to mention other major treaties such as the UN, ECHR etc etc etc

So while I'm definitely sympathetic with sovereignty arguments, the way UK uses them is more than a little preposterous, imho -- and if they sign TPIP and the Atlantic version they'll even give corporations the right to sue their government. How's that for handing over sovereignty?

But there's more.... hey, did you know almost everyone in the world wants UK to stay in the EU except for the evil Putin!!!

(These guys sure have a good stash of pics)



http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...vid-cameron-eu

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Absolutely no problem at all G, the first quote you make actually refers solely to my reply to Palo who has a long standing gripe with the UK election process. I just didn't want that to start up again here.

We're not starting it up. In fact, you must have misunderstood me, because I've never cared how you vote, or if you vote at all

You can elect leaders by the length of their middle finger or even choose a dictator, and it wouldn't disturb me

The only thing I object to is when UKers say others such as the EU aren't democratic when they know their own system is rigged to disqualify most of the votes