The Cold War Thread

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

It's true, there is no death penalty in Russia for almost 20 years

But I would like to know what his legal status is. If he took the same argument like Kalugin, and said the State he performed actions against no longer exists (USSR) it would be interesting to see the details of how the Russian State responds

Interesting quibble, though essentially a legal quibble rather than a matter of substance. Has there been a ruling on that one yet?

It would have been more substantial as an argument in 1919 for a person accused of treason against the Austro-Hungarian or the Ottoman empires, which were completely dissolved. But the Russian Federation is a successor state which still governs most of the territory and most of the population of the USSR. As far as I know, it acknowledges international treaties which were signed by the USSR; it pays the pensions of former Soviet military and government personnel etc.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Interesting quibble, though essentially a legal quibble rather than a matter of substance. Has there been a ruling on that one yet?

I'm sure Kalugin won't allow himself in Putin's hands to find out. Kalugin was sentenced in Absentia, so his argument wasn't heard

[richardoe]

Ive just finished reading a book about the Royal Navy submarine HMS Conqueror. Some of you may remember the campaign by Tam Dalyell over the sinking of the Belgrano and that th control room log book went missing from that period. Well according to this book they went missing not because of the Belgrano but because what happened in August 82.

In August 82 the Conqueror took part in operation Barmaid, this was the theft of a towed array sonar from a Polish AGI (a spy ship that pretended to be a trawler)in Russian waters. Now if this is true (and apparently it is) then that would explain why the log book went missing.

[palo5]

A British submarine steals equipment from a Polish "spy ship" in Soviet waters?

That reminds me of the Romanian sub that stole equipment from a Belgian "spy ship" in US waters

[richardoe]

Can someone explain why when I put BARMAID in block capitals he site has put it as Barmaid? For those that dont know all British military operation names are writen in block capitals,so too are Battle Honours.

[scoundrel]

One aspect of the Cold War was aerial reconnaissance using intruder aircraft. This frequently led to violent confrontation and the recent downing of an unmanned drone by the Iranians put me in mind of this.

The Americans designed and built the U2 spy plane and this of course led to the 1960 U2 incident, where Francis Gary Powers was shot down deep inside the USSR and the Eisenhower administration dug a deeper hole for itself by making up cock and bull stories about what happened, not knowing that the wreckage was mostly intact and that the pilot had elected not to kill himself, as he was supposed to. It speaks I think of the Cold War mindset that people in Washington and the CIA felt let down that a man they neither knew nor cared about, and whose family they would not have lifted a finger to aid, did not commit suicide just to help them. The hardhearted arrogance of this thinking is very striking.

But before 1957 the USA did not have an aircraft capable of exceeding the known service ceiling of the Soviet air defence fighter, the Migkoyan Gorovich 15 (MIG 15) - the US had gained a healthy respect for this machine from the Korean War. But in 1951, a high altitude strategic bomber called the English Electric Canberra entered service with the British RAF. For comparison -

MIG 15 specifications.
Maximum speed:
At sea level: Mach 0.87 (1,076 km/h; 669 mph)
At 3,000 m (9,840 ft): Mach 0.9 (1,107 km/h; 688 mph)
Cruise speed: Mach 0.69 (850 km/h; 528 mph)
Range: 2,520 km (1,565 mi; 1,362 nmi) at 12,000 m (39,360 ft) with 2 × 600 l (130 imp gal; 160 US gal) drop tanks
Service ceiling: 15,500 m (50,840 ft)

AE Canberra specifications.
Maximum speed: Mach 0.88 (580 mph, 933 km/h) at 40,000 ft (12,192 m)
Combat radius: 810 mi (700 nm, 1,300 km)
Ferry range: 3,380 mi (2,940 nm, 5,440 km)
Service ceiling: 48,000 ft (15,000 m)


One should note that without armour or guns, the Canberra could fly much higher. Against that, for a U2 type mission it would need a full fuel load and the camera equipment would weigh something.

There are widespread reports that the RAF carried out U2 style deep penetration missions to spy on the USSR in the early 1950s. Originally, if it really happened, any missions before the Canberra entered full service would have been done using piston engined Lincoln bombers. Once the MIG 15 came into full service, using Lincoln bombers would have been pretty suicidal, just not a risk worth considering.

There are widespread rumours that at least one mission was flown by an RAF Canberra in broad daylight, relying on its speed and high altitude to keep it clear of the Russian day fighters. The story goes that this happened in August 1953. There had only just been a ceasefire in Korea and it was not yet clear that these hostilities were really finished. The US were aware of Soviet rocket development going on at Kapushtin Yar, about 75 miles east of modern day Volgograd. In the absence of spy satellites not yet in existence, there was only one way to get photo reconnaissance.

The mission was flown and the photos obtained. But reliance on immunity from aerial interception proved optimistic. Had a Canberra flown at 15000 meters I am sure the MIGs would have shot it down quite early on. The wikipedia article on Kapushtin Yar mentions this raid and estimates the RAF were flying at 20000 meters, which is not quite impossible. The RAF set a world altitide record in tha Canberra of over 70,000 feet which would be over 21,000 meters. Certainly the RAF would have flown as high as they physically could reach because that was their only defence against Russian interceptors.

In the 1980s an RAF English Electric Lightning intercepted a U2 at 88,000 feet during NATO exercises. It did so by flying to its maximum level speed then swooping up in a ballistic climb, trading speed for height and getting into range that way. One can reasonably surmise that experienced Russian MIG pilots did the same thing in 1953 and managed to claw the extra height very briefly, getting close enough for one shot before the RAF plane outpaced them and they had to quit. But they did it many times and eventually the Canberra took some hits. It got home with the photographs but also with the message that this was not a safe mission and that if a Russian MIG could hit a Canberra, it could potentially shoot one down. No second mission as blatant as this was ever flown again, albeit that RAF Canberras continued to intrude on Russian and Warsaw Pact airspace in 1954. If you flew deep into Russia and for a long time, the MIGs would eventually get you. In Cold War terms, you could call it a score draw.

Always assuming any of this ever happened. The British government has never spoken about it, and after all you would need to be a frightful rotter to do such things.