Sir Winston Churchill..... the greatest Englisman?

[mizlaplan]

Originally Posted by steamjon

As for the greatest living Englishman, I think the half American Churchill should be semi disqualified

Off the record, just between you and me.....
Being half-American was probably a huge plus point for Winston.
An English toff, on being crapped on, would do bugger all.
Yes....a lot of buggering
Winston?
Crap on him and you could wave goodbye to everything, including your country.

[Dr Pepper]

Originally Posted by steamjon

As for the greatest living Englishman, I think the half American Churchill should be semi disqualified

Being half American saved Eamon De Valera from a well deserved date with the firing squad after the Easter Uprising in 1916......the only senior member of the uprising to be so lucky....

[SanteeFats]

As an American these posts that disparage Churchill are a little beyond my ken. I freely admit I do not have your viewpoint on him but IMO he was just what your country needed at the time. As I believe FDR was for the US. He may have been arrogant, opinionated, etc. but he stayed the course and helped take the Allies to victory. He didn't seem to get swayed by other viewpoints with out cause, right of wrong. Yes he made mistakes, what leader didn't?, but over all he helped win the war. There are times when leaders need to be stubborn and he was certainly that. I personally have a high regard for him, historically speaking.
As to him being half American what does it matter if he was raised in England??
My heritage is Scotch-Irish but I am an American first and for most.

[Tmee2020]

My father used to say that Churchill's career had been pretty much one of failure, up until the age of 65. He turned 65 on November 30, 1939.

Out and then back in with the Conservative Party Churchill said "anyone can rat, but it takes a certain ingenuity to re-rat." Every time though, he was put in a position of authority in the government.

As Les Carlyon said, he was always right about Hitler.

There was a poll of the 100 Greatest Britons by the BBC that had Churchill at #1, Brunel #2 (interesting choice- certainly in the discussion) and Lady Di #3...

[scoundrel]

Churchill had an American mother, Jenny Jerome of New York. His father, a penniless and politically ambitious aristocrat, Lord Randolph Churchill, married for money; its what toffs used to do in the 19th Century. Churchill had the usual aristocratic upbringing, which mostly involved being sent away by his parents to boarding schools.

Churchill was very open about and fiercely proud of his American blood. I do not doubt that some other boys at Harrow tried to bully him for it or that they ended up wishing they hadn't. In a famous passage from his account of his premiership in WW2, which with his usual sense of perspective he called The Second World War*, Churchill wrote:

Silly people -- and there were many, not only in enemy countries -- might discount the force of the United States. Some said they were soft, others that they would never be united. They would fool around at a distance. They would never come to grips. They would never stand blood-letting. Their democracy and system of recurrent elections would paralyze their war effort. They would be just a vague blur on the horizon to friend or foe. Now we should see the weakness of this numerous but remote, wealthy, and talkative people. But I had studied the American Civil War, fought out to the last desperate inch. American blood flowed in my veins. I thought of a remark which Edward Grey had made to me more than thirty years before -- that the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate." Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful.

Edward Grey was the foreign secretary of Herbert Asquith's and David Lloyd George's governments, between 1908 and 1916. He might with equal accuracy have said the same thing about Britain; but the British were slow to come to steam pressure and you needed to light a very big fire under them. You could say the same thing about the stubborn and intractible Churchill, a man who could be brilliantly right or atrociously wrong with equal force of will. Cardinal Wolsey said of Henry VIII:

Be very, very careful what you put into that head, for you will never, ever get it out again.

Churchill was like that as well; extremely goal oriented and single minded in pursuing objectives.


* His book about his experiences in the Great War is called The World Crisis. Admiral Keyes commented: "Winston has written a book about himself and called it The World Crisis."

[Tmee2020]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Churchill had an American mother, Jenny Jerome of New York. His father, a penniless and politically ambitious aristocrat, Lord Randolph Churchill, married for money; its what toffs used to do in the 19th Century. Churchill had the usual aristocratic upbringing, which mostly involved being sent away by his parents to boarding schools...

Winston's mother was a great beauty, of that or any age.

So if he married for money Randolph lucked in.



I wonder if Winston was ever caught by the school leopard?

(09:10)

www.dailymotion.com/video/xdf0xw_tomkinson-s-schooldays-part-1_fun

[Mal Hombre]

Churchill was not the "Greatest Englishman" in as much as no one possibly could be.That is not to decry His importance or His achievements as Soldier,Statesman and Author.Had WW2 not happened, He would be remembered now as a maverick,A political chancer,Always out for the main chance.WW2 did happen and He was the right man,Perhaps the only man at the right time to lead Great Britain through it's darkest hours.WW2 was His "Finest Hour"and with victory that hour was done ,The country rejected Him in 1945 but the affection and gratitude remained.

[Wendigo]

100 Greatest Britons from 2002, no surprise who is at number one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Greatest_Britons

#67 though has since blotted his copybook and is thankfully just another dishonourable lying has-been

[haroldeye]

Wendigo - it says something that the list for greatest Englishman contains;

Bono - an Irishman best known for flying in his private jet to Green conferences (and being a general pain in the arse)

Owen Glendower - A Welshman'

Queen Elizabeth the QM - A very proud Scottish lady.

Robert De Brus - A Norman/French/English/Scot usually held up as a Scots Nationalist.

As for #67 - Met the man several times when he was my MP. Snake oil salesman of the very worst sort.

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by haroldeye

Wendigo - it says something that the list for greatest Englishman contains;

Bono - an Irishman best known for flying in his private jet to Green conferences (and being a general pain in the arse)

Owen Glendower - A Welshman'

Queen Elizabeth the QM - A very proud Scottish lady.

Robert De Brus - A Norman/French/English/Scot usually held up as a Scots Nationalist.

As for #67 - Met the man several times when he was my MP. Snake oil salesman of the very worst sort.

It's BRITONS though haroldeye, so although Bono should have been disqualified the rest are well OK