Questions for our American friends

[Roubignol]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

There is no border. the only difference is one faction is led by a noble or capitalist king and the other is led by a peasant king. You want the peasant king to be somehow more just and actually concerned with the welfare of his fellow peasants, but history has shown that more often then not, he isn't. In fact sometimes the peasant king is much worse than the noble king.

Stop defending evil that claims it is for the salvation of the masses.

I don't specially want any peasant king.

As I already answered to one of your assertion about dictator "xyzde69".

Originally Posted by xyzde69

I'd refer to the final decision of the ethics commitee runned by selected scientists of very high intellectual level, who would take care of the best for the human mankind.

I'm preoccupied about unfairness.

[bowlinggreen]

^ You'll be forced to dictatorial measures to get the peasants to do what you want once you overthrow the capitalists.

Because this is what always happens.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

There is no border. the only difference is one faction is led by a noble or capitalist king and the other is led by a peasant king. You want the peasant king to be somehow more just and actually concerned with the welfare of his fellow peasants, but history has shown that more often then not, he isn't. In fact sometimes the peasant king is much worse than the noble king.

Stop defending evil that claims it is for the salvation of the masses.

As George Orwell famously observed in Animal Farm "Some animals are more equal than others."

[cginok]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

I read somewhere once that 40 percent of all the food in the US is wasted. From what I have seen, I believe it.

I am sometimes guilty of that myself, leaving stuff in the fridge until it expires because I don't feel like eating it and then chucking it.

Although my wastage pales in comparison to what rich people waste at their banquets. Shrimp, lobster, the best cuts of steak prepared in quantity at great expense and then a significant portion of it left uneaten and tossed into the swill at the end of the evening.

Conspicuous consumption and waste - always a statement of status and power, I guess.

I understand that our American servings of food are much larger than what Europeans are accustomed to receiving in restaurants as well.

If there is one thing America has always had, it's an abundance of food - perhaps an overabundance.

I was watching a show once about people somewhere in Africa. They had no electricity in their little village, and therefore, no fridges. The women in the village would go to the market every morning, buy that days food, eat it that day, and repeat the process the next day. If Americans had to do that, there would be a lot less wastage of food. It's hard to let something spoil when you eat it the same day you buy it.

I wonder how much longer we will have that overabundance. I've read articles in farming/ranching type magazines about how the soil in our midwest is, pretty much, worn out. After a century and a half of being farmed within an inch of it's life, the soils been depleted. That's why they have to put so many things into the soil, to keep up the yield, to the point that there is enough food to feed this country. I grew up in ranch country. It always amazes me just how much of a disconnect there is amongst city people, and their understanding of what it takes to grow/raise the things they buy in grocery stores and restaurants. I think some...heck maybe most...of them think that stuff appears because of food fairies.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by cginok

I was watching a show once about people somewhere in Africa. They had no electricity in their little village, and therefore, no fridges. The women in the village would go to the market every morning, buy that days food, eat it that day, and repeat the process the next day. If Americans had to do that, there would be a lot less wastage of food. It's hard to let something spoil when you eat it the same day you buy it.

I wonder how much longer we will have that overabundance. I've read articles in farming/ranching type magazines about how the soil in our midwest is, pretty much, worn out. After a century and a half of being farmed within an inch of it's life, the soils been depleted. That's why they have to put so many things into the soil, to keep up the yield, to the point that there is enough food to feed this country. I grew up in ranch country. It always amazes me just how much of a disconnect there is amongst city people, and their understanding of what it takes to grow/raise the things they buy in grocery stores and restaurants. I think some...heck maybe most...of them think that stuff appears because of food fairies.

It is my understanding that there are three issues with our farms. 1) Crop rotation hasn't been practiced and the soils have been depleted. (Pretty stupid since crop rotation has been known since Roman times.) 2) The aquifers have been over pumped and the water supply is gone in many areas. 3) Changing weather patterns that are believed to be caused by the changing climate that some folks are trying to pretend is not happening. It really is hard to believe that we are truly intelligent given that our species appears to have degraded its habitat several times through the centuries. The difference this time is that there are now so many of us migration is impossible. All the good land and fresh water sources have been over exploited.

[bowlinggreen]

Originally Posted by cginok

I was watching a show once about people somewhere in Africa. They had no electricity in their little village, and therefore, no fridges. The women in the village would go to the market every morning, buy that days food, eat it that day, and repeat the process the next day. If Americans had to do that, there would be a lot less wastage of food. It's hard to let something spoil when you eat it the same day you buy it.

I wonder how much longer we will have that overabundance. I've read articles in farming/ranching type magazines about how the soil in our midwest is, pretty much, worn out. After a century and a half of being farmed within an inch of it's life, the soils been depleted. That's why they have to put so many things into the soil, to keep up the yield, to the point that there is enough food to feed this country. I grew up in ranch country. It always amazes me just how much of a disconnect there is amongst city people, and their understanding of what it takes to grow/raise the things they buy in grocery stores and restaurants. I think some...heck maybe most...of them think that stuff appears because of food fairies.

^ The problem with that idea is, how many of us have women who are going to run down to the market every day and then spend a couple hours a day cooking for us?

I can foresee a food crisis popping up at some point too. Aside from soil depletion, in some places people are draining the deep aquifers dry to water crops, like Brian says. When the day comes that no more water can be pumped, then no more crops. A lot of corn production here is not for food anymore either, but to produce ethanol for fuel. Water that could be used as a reserve to grow food in time of crisis is being used up to power gas guzzling SUVs.

if the agri-market system we have now breaks down on a large scale, rural folk will be able to get by with big gardens (we had big gardens when I was a kid, and that provided a lot of food, and my mother canned) but it will get ugly in the cities.

We just keep packing more and more people into these huge cities without thinking what will happen if there is some sort of disaster that breaks the food distribution system down.

A big sudden climate shift and we're going to have mass starvation.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by bowlinggreen

A lot of corn production here is not for food anymore either, but to produce ethanol for fuel. Water that could be used as a reserve to grow food in time of crisis is being used up to power gas guzzling SUVs.

Well that and animal feed for pork chops and Big Macs.

The worst part of the whole ethanol boondoggle is that we could make it far cheaper and easier using Brazilian sugar, thereby helping both countries. But the Congressmen from the Midwest have created a windfall for the gigantic agbusiness farmers and it is proving very difficult to cut off their corporate welfare for the good of the country. Sort of like providing subsidies for coal mines.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by cginok

I was watching a show once about people somewhere in Africa. They had no electricity in their little village, and therefore, no fridges. The women in the village would go to the market every morning, buy that days food, eat it that day, and repeat the process the next day. If Americans had to do that, there would be a lot less wastage of food. It's hard to let something spoil when you eat it the same day you buy it.

I wonder how much longer we will have that overabundance. I've read articles in farming/ranching type magazines about how the soil in our midwest is, pretty much, worn out. After a century and a half of being farmed within an inch of it's life, the soils been depleted. That's why they have to put so many things into the soil, to keep up the yield, to the point that there is enough food to feed this country. I grew up in ranch country. It always amazes me just how much of a disconnect there is amongst city people, and their understanding of what it takes to grow/raise the things they buy in grocery stores and restaurants. I think some...heck maybe most...of them think that stuff appears because of food fairies.

If we follow this logic too far we end up proposing a de-industrialisation of human society. There are seven billion human beings on this planet: I remember when there were only three billion in the mid 1970s and I thought that was a lot. We are going to be in one hell of a spot if we cannot stabilise the position. De-industrialising the world would not just exactly solve the problem, except that a lot of people dying off quickly will no doubt help.

[Grouchy]

Originally Posted by Brian249x

Changing weather patterns that are believed to be caused by the changing climate that some folks are trying to pretend is not happening.

I think everyone agrees that climate change is happening..

What is in dispute is the causes. Some say the changes are the natural cycle of the planet whilst others believe the changes are man-induced.

[Arturo2nd]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

If we follow this logic too far we end up proposing a de-industrialisation of human society. There are seven billion human beings on this planet: I remember when there were only three billion in the mid 1970s and I thought that was a lot. We are going to be in one hell of a spot if we cannot stabilise the position. De-industrialising the world would not just exactly solve the problem, except that a lot of people dying off quickly will no doubt help.

I saw an article that stated that further concentrating ourselves in cities while maintaining or expanding agricultural and wild spaces may enable us to keep current population levels while stabilizing the climate. Others have proposed dialing us back to the 2.5 to 3 billion range which will prove unacceptable to those marked for immediate extinction.

It is my understanding that we ought to be in a cooling cycle and that the changes we are seeing at the poles are very troubling. We tend to forget that our entire civilization rests on agriculture. It is believed that our ancestors didn't invent it earlier because the weather patterns weren't predictable enough for agriculture until 10,000 years ago. I have believed for decades that we are in deep doodoo. Al Gore almost convinced me for a bit that we could turn things around.

Disclaimer: Friends and family know that I am a pessimist and given to periodic bouts of deep depression.