The Second World War.

[danton]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I suspect that there is a lot that we don't know and might never know about the former British Empire... [Edit by danton]

But having said this, the fall of Burma in 1942 showed clear evidence of how hostile large sections of the local population were to the British and how they wanted to be liberated by the Japanese, until they found out that Japan was merely a colonial power and far more rapacious even than Britain. In early March 1942, after the collapse of the front at the Sittang River, the remnants of the British and Commonwealth forces had to break out from being encircled in Rangoon, and fled up the Irriwaddy valley towards India. Troops of the Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry formed a large part of the rearguard. As they passed through Burma, in village after village, public buildings such as schools and administrative offices were torched by the local people so that the smoke would signal to the Japanese where the retreating British were. This may have been orchestrated by members of the Burmese Independence Army. In at least one case, the retreating KOYLI rearguards caught a mob of Burmese red-handed burning a school to flag their progress to Japanese aircraft, and hanged all of them on the spot.

Burma was not quite the same as India. It was formerly an independent kingdom and was defeated by the British in 1866 and ruled from then to 1942 by right of conquest. But I suspect that the same tensions were there in India in 1942, that this wasn't all that congenial a relationship, that the Imperial subjects weren't necessarily so much willing as cowed, resentful, and watching for their chance. Many Indians fought on Britain's side, but quite a few didn't.

scoundrel: I have a book written by a Chindit (Fergusson by name) who re-counts how the Burmans signalled his column's presence behind the lines to the Japanese in just the way you describe. In Upper Burma the Karen people were very much pro-British and refused payment (in silver) for food, delighting in deceiving the Japanese. Post Independence, the dominant Burmans have waged a long and largely unreported military campaign against the Karens who themselves seek independence.

A million Indians (of all the main religious Faiths) volunteered for service in the British Indian Army at the outbreak of the war. They were a very significant force once the Allies found a competent General in Bill Slim.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by danton

I must ask why you are raising this

Sorry, I thought it was clear: the people could have been supplied but weren't, which caused an avoidable famine

Obviously this is not the only case of great cruelty, but with 6-7 million deaths it is one of the biggest, and therefore we should notice it, imho

[palo5]

Originally Posted by flojons

The russians would not have been able to fight or defeat the Nazis if it was not for the massive aid they were getting from the USA

It is the other way around, Comrade - without the USSR, the USA would have had great difficulties, because without the USSR, the USA would have faced five times as many Germans

So did they let the Russians get away with paying?

This is an amusing question, because we don't/didn't think in the same way. When we produce a rifle, we produce it together and think it's for all of us. We would never think "Oh it costs $1,50, so somewhere money must change hands"

So when the USA gives us a truck or tank, we think they want us to use it to beat the common enemy - which nearly always means us fighting Germany, and our people being killed instead of America's, which is what really happened. We didn't count this in dollars, and neither should any decent American

[DTravel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Sorry, I thought it was clear: the people could have been supplied but weren't, which caused an avoidable famine

Obviously this is not the only case of great cruelty, but with 6-7 million deaths it is one of the biggest, and therefore we should notice it, imho

It was a cruelty inflicted by "Indians" against other "Indians". (I use quotes because prior to the British Empire "India" was made up of a large number of separate sovereign states.) Plus the fact that "an avoidable famine" is debatable as the resources it would have required would have necessitated effectively surrendering the military defense of India against the Japanese. And this is wandering way off topic IMHO.

[otiscleotus]

Originally Posted by palo5

It is the other way around, Comrade - without the USSR, the USA would have had great difficulties, because without the USSR, the USA would have faced five times as many Germans



This is an amusing question, because we don't/didn't think in the same way. When we produce a rifle, we produce it together and think it's for all of us. We would never think "Oh it costs $1,50, so somewhere money must change hands"

So when the USA gives us a truck or tank, we think they want us to use it to beat the common enemy - which nearly always means us fighting Germany, and our people being killed instead of America's, which is what really happened. We didn't count this in dollars, and neither should any decent American

Without going any farther into researching if the debt was completely paid off there is no doubt that the Soviet Union was at one time paying for the supplies received from the US:

Shipwreck discovery may hold $3 billion in platinum, seaman says

Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:47pm EST

(Reuters) - A Maine seafarer said he found the wreck of a World War II merchant ship off the Massachusetts coast, sunk while ferrying a load of the precious metal platinum valued today at nearly $3 billion, an unprecedented find that left some doubting the cargo.

Greg Brooks of Sub Sea Research in Gorham, Maine, said on Thursday he discovered the submerged ship in 2008 some 50 miles off the Massachusetts coast and, using a remotely run submersible vessel, identified it last summer as British freighter Port Nicholson.

The coal-fired ship, which rests in 700 feet of water, was sunk by torpedoes in a June 1942 attack by a German U-boat, Brooks said.

Brooks said the vessel had been bound for New York from Nova Scotia with 1.707 million ounces of platinum, a precious metal intended as a special wartime payment to the United States from the then Soviet Union.

That much bullion, if verified, would have a value today of $2.77 billion, at a platinum market price of $1,624 per ounce.

"If all the cargo is brought up, it will be the richest shipwreck in the world," the treasure hunter said.

The Port Nicholson, which Brooks said was owned by British shipping firm Port Line Ltd, was part of a convoy under military

escort when enemy ship U-87 fired multiple torpedoes, sinking both it and the troop ship Cherokee, and causing numerous fatalities.

Sub Sea Research says it verified the ship using an underwater camera, has seen "declassified documents verifying the cargo" and interviewed survivors and relatives of the crew.

Brooks said he also believes the ship may have been carrying around $165 million -- at today's prices -- worth of other valuable metals, due to the port of origin and the tonnage.

Of the platinum at least, he said he is "99.9 percent sure" it was on board and the wreck site shows no signs of any past salvage work.

"As time went on, it was forgotten about, because it was a secret cargo," he said.

Platinum is a precious metal used to produce catalytic converters in automobiles, and is used in other goods ranging from computers to dental work and cancer treatment.

In 2009, a federal judge gave the Sub Sea salvage rights to the ship, and Brooks said he hopes to begin recovery operations soon, once he acquires more key equipment.

But some involved with the case question the wreck's purported cargo, which -- if accurately described -- would be the biggest cache ever recovered beneath the sea.

An attorney representing the British government in the matter said he is skeptical about the cargo and disagrees over who can claim to own it today under maritime law.

"I don't have any official information yet on whether any of the things they claim were on there, were on there," said the Tampa-based attorney, Timothy Shusta. "Our initial research into it indicated the ship was carrying machinery and military stores."

But wartime ship manifests historically were unreliable, and false ones sometimes were published to put "loose lips" off of what might be on board, Shusta said.

He agreed that Sub Sea Research was named custodian of the wreck in U.S. court documents, allowing it to carry out salvage operations, but disputed that this meant it can keep what it finds.

Shusta said most likely, maritime law will state that the cargo ultimately belongs to either the ship's owner, which he says is Britain, or possibly to former USSR-member Russia, which Sub Sea Research said later made good on the lost payment from the ship.
If the payment was not made, the U.S. government may have a claim to it, he added.
But Sub Sea Research likely is entitled to an as-yet undetermined salvage award, "if they bring something up," he said.
A similar case from five years ago is still playing out in U.S. courts.
In 2007, Florida deep-sea salvager Odyssey Marine Exploration recovered an estimated $500 million in gold and silver coins from a 19th century sunken ship off the Spanish coast.
Since then, federal courts have steadily ruled in favor of Spain's claim to the treasure, although the money has not yet been paid

[palo5]

Originally Posted by DTravel

And this is wandering way off topic IMHO.

Not imho, because it was a war tactic in WW2, and because it had deep consequences for millions of people, it would be wrong not to mention it

No hard feelings, DT

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

Not imho, because it was a war tactic in WW2, and because it had deep consequences for millions of people, it would be wrong not to mention it

No hard feelings, DT

It happened during the war and it happened in no small part because there was a war on. In peacetime, Bengal could have been supplied from Burma, as was done more than once before in similar circumstances. and shipping food from Australia would have been a much more practical alternative; in 1943 Burma was lost and shipping food from Australia was extremely difficult, not only because there was a dire shortage of the necessary ships, but because Japan controlled the Bay of Bengal.

But just as I won't wear the word "atrocity", I am puzzled by "war tactic". Whose tactic and to what purpose, palo? Once again, this seems to imply starvation with intent, (Homolodor?); but by whom and for what ends?

[palo5]

Originally Posted by otiscleotus

Without going any farther into researching if the debt was completely paid off there is no doubt that the Soviet Union was at one time paying for the supplies received from the US:

I hope we didn't pay any cash or gold for supplies, because we paid 100 times as much in lives and destruction of our cities, and this is not understood enough in The West

You supplying us was good for YOU, because we were beating the common enemy and saving YOUR lives

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

I am puzzled by "war tactic". Whose tactic and to what purpose...?

Scorched earth, Scoundrel - protect India (The Empire) at all costs and do not allow the under-supplied Japanese to take anything

It is a common tactic everywhere, not just by the English. It's just that the number of deaths was near world-record level

[Ennath]

February 28, 1922
Egypt The British unilaterally terminate their protectorate in Egypt and Sultan Fuad is proclaimed King. Britain retains base rights in Alexandria and the Suez Canal Zone.

February 28, 1925
Germany, Politics President Ebert dies after a botched appendix operation. He has been for many Germans the embodiment of the Republic.

February 28, 1940
Finland The Finns storm the isolated entrenched camp of 34th Tank Brigade at Kitelae, capturing 105 tanks and 200 other vehicles.
Palestine New laws further restrict Jewish purchase of Arab land.
China Communist troops take Anting, near Yenan, from Japanese troops.

February 28, 1941
East Africa Asmara, Eritrea is bombed by British planes. The RAF has now established air superiority in East Africa.
Malaya It is announced that eastern approaches to Singapore harbor are to be mined and closed to shipping from March 3.
France Vichy reduces the bread ration to a Spartan 280 grams.

February 28, 1942
France British commandos and paratroops raid the German radar station at Bruneval, taking away equipment for examination.
East Indies The Japanese land on Java at Merak and Bantam Bay.
The four American destroyers that have escaped from the Java Sea sail for the Sunda Strait. The Japanese control Dutch Timor and much of Portuguese Timor. Australian commandos, however, dominate the south and east of the island.
Burma British troops fall back on Pegu, the prelude to a general retirement.
Propaganda Indian nationalist leader Subhas Chandra Bose broadcasts from Berlin stating India’s readiness to cooperate with Germany.

February 28, 1943
Norway The Norsk Hydro power station near Ryukan is heavily damaged by a sabotage team of Norwegian soldiers who have been parachuted in from Britain. The Allies know the plant is being used by the Germans to produce heavy water, vital in atomic research.
Eastern Front The beginnings of the spring thaw in the south hold up Soviet operations against the Kuban bridgehead and near Taganrog. Other Soviet troops are heavily engaged around Demyansk.

February 28, 1944
Italy The Germans begin a new offensive at Anzio. The main weight of the attack falls on US 3rd Division on the Anzio-Cisterna road. The four attacking divisions fail to break through.

February 28, 1945
Western Front US III Corps crosses the Roer at Berg. 3rd Army continues pushing toward Trier. Panzer forces are being transferred east for a planned offensive in Hungary, including 6th SS Panzer Army.
Aegean British troops land on Piscopi Island, near Rhodes. There is little resistance.
The Philippines There are US landings at Puerto Princesa on Palawan by 8000 men of 41st Division. There is little Japanese resistance to the landings. On Luzon the fighting in Manila goes on.
Bonin Islands Marines capture part of Motoyama plateau overlooking Airfield #3. Liquidation of the last pockets on Mount Suribachi continues. Shore batteries severely damage two American destroyers.
Burma British 4th Corps begins to attack Meiktila in strength. Due to the successful distraction of Mandalay the Japanese have left it to the local troops at Meiktila to defend their own base. This is a serious error because the city is a vital communications center, serving all the Japanese forces around Mandalay and to the north.

February 28 – March 8, 1947
China A Separatist revolt on Formosa (Taiwan) is crushed with 10,000 dead.

February 28, 1952
Poland Danzig Free State Nazi leader Forster is executed.