The Second World War.

[knobby109]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

By 1944, millions of Frenchmen who in 1940 had been apathetic or actively opposed (remember the Communists were influential and campaigned vigorously against the Capitalist-Imperialist War) had been occupied for a long time and were plenty steamed about it.

There was a sea change in public opinion both in France and in the UK when Germany attacked the USSR.There were many communist sympathisers who were either against the war or lukewarm about it, probably because of the pact between Germany and the USSR.They changed their attitude after Barbarossa.
I once read that the French High Command refused to instal radio equipment on the grounds that transmissions would attract enemy action.So it wasn't in direct touch with the army in the field.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

...It's true I detest the idea of Stalin and I instinctively recoil from any political system which denies individuals their human right to freedom, and that I emphatically identify Communism as just such a system, but I hugely admire the Russian nation for what it achieved in WW2 and I don't want anyone to think otherwise.

In that case, you must instinctively recoil from the system that deported its 'petty criminals' to America and later Australia; even orphans - many are still alive today

But thanks for saying something positive about the USSR

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

In that case, you must instinctively recoil from the system that deported its 'petty criminals' to America and later Australia; even orphans - many are still alive today

As regards the transportation of convicts, that officially ended in 1868 though in practise it had dwindled when the Australian gold rush started several years previously. While I don't think it reflects at all well on my country, I regard it in the general historical context of the times; for example Tsar Alexander II abolished serfdom in Russia in the 1860s (a few years before the Americans abolished slavery). Some sountries (including Russia) continued with deportation and penal servitude long after 1868.

As regards the orphans, this episode was much more recent and a big scandal both in the UK and in Australia when it became public knowledge, and also the malignant role played by the so-called Christian Brothers. Of course I instinctively recoil from this, as do all right-thinking people in Britain, Australia or anywhere else.

I never said my own country is perfect or that it ever was perfect. I am not offended that you have made a valid criticism. But just as Russia is your country, Britain is mine and for all their faults we are both proud of our countries and have a valid cause to be proud of them. WW2 was an event which totally remoulded the shape of the world. Russia was one of the gainers and Britain one of the biggest losers; but I would not change the decision to fight Hitler to the bitter end for any consideration. The Empire was indefensible (morally) and had to go; at least this way it went with a bang and not with a whimper. As for my own country, it may be a has-been but that's better than a never-was.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

But thanks for saying something positive about the USSR

From left to right:

• Russian dolls: I don't know why but I like them and always have.
• Sergei Rachmaninoff: a great composer and pianist of whom any country would be proud.
• The T34: not necessarily the best tank of WW2 but the best tank on the allied side available in numbers and if your were a German soldier, meeting one of these could totally ruin your whole day.
• Illyushin Il2 Sturmovik: it looked like someone made it out of spare bits, even the rear gun position was originally improvised, and it was quintessially Russian; not very chic, but tougher than boots. German tank crews hated it and said so.
• General Georgy Zhukov: IMHO the most successful general of WW2. Here we see him on the Siedlowe Heights outside Berlin surveying the city which it was now his duty to capture. The expression on his face is interesting; this is the face of a very competent man, a man who could handle pressure.

Just as an intellectual exercise, I invite my VEF friends to say 5 positive things about a country not their own, on either the Allied or Axis side of WW2.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

• General Georgy Zhukov: IMHO the most successful general of WW2. Here we see him on the Siedlowe Heights outside Berlin surveying the city which it was now his duty to capture. The expression on his face is interesting; this is the face of a very competent man, a man who could handle pressure.

He's exactly the man you would hate, scoundrel

[rotobott]

Germany.

1 Cool uniforms

2 Great tanks, panther tiger etc

3 Great planes Me 262, FW 109 etc

4 Music Beethoven etc

5 Technical innovation V1 V2 etc

What's not to like

Oh yeah

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by rotobott

Germany.

1 Cool uniforms

2 Great tanks, panther tiger etc

3 Great planes Me 262, FW 109 etc

4 Music Beethoven etc

5 Technical innovation V1 V2 etc

What's not to like

Oh yeah

Let's not get into that...

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

...Just as an intellectual exercise, I invite my VEF friends to say 5 positive things about a country not their own, on either the Allied or Axis side of WW2.

Italy:

1. Good weather

2. Good people

3. Good food

4. Good wine

5. Beautiful country

[palo5]

Germany:

1. Good expertise / engineering

2. Good workers

3. Good infrastructure

4. Nudity everywhere

5. Makers of the world's best beers

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by palo5

He's exactly the man you would hate, scoundrel

I am sure I wouldn't want Marshal Zhukov on my case.

But would I hate him? I doubt it. No doubt he was a Communist out of conviction; it's hardly likely he would have made it to top rank if he was at all unreliable. But whatever my views of Communism, I don't extrapolate to say that I must therefore hate Communists because that would just be silly. I can distinguish between a man and his politics, as long as those politics are not inherently criminal and morally vicious, as with neo-Nazis for example.

Zhukov was a really first class general, whose record speaks for itself. Of course he was ruthless and by no means economical with his mens' lives; but neither was he some thuggish imbecile wedded to human wave tactics. There is recorded evidence of him dealing drastically with subordinate generals who were thugs wedded to human wave tactics; he had no use for idiots such as these. Neither did he have no humanity; when he found that the newly conquered population of Berlin were on the edge of dying from starvation, he fed them, because it was no part of his philosophy that his enemies were subhuman or that even his enemies did not deserve to eat. He was no milk-and-water liberal, but I see no reason to hate him. Given the stuff he and his country had suffered, I would consider him reasonable and fair.