Current Politics in the United Kingdom

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by palo5

We know that -- they will be screwed

People have said that about us on our island before - I daresay we'll pull through.

[laberbacke]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

All nations have structural problems. No nation is problem-free. The best approach to dealing with national problems is self-determination and a democratic system.

So I take it you're a republican who wants to abolish both the monarchy and aristocracy (the House of Lords) and replace them with elected officials?

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by G-Type

Agreed

Given the deeply rooting hate and loathing that´s being shown towards the EU, you might perhaps comprehend that we Europeans tend to think that a hard cut and No-Deal is most probably the best for all parties involved.

It will save precious time...

...for us, to focus on our own projects and plans

...and for you, "to find your own place in the world"

That grotesque game definitely needs to come to an end.
.

You don't have to answer if you prefer not to; but I am curious to learn how others in Europe feel about being governed by the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt. Do you feel that the free movement of labour is a freedom for people, or a freedom for commerce? Do you feel that the Schengen Agreement is compatible with national security? Do you feel enfranchised or disenfranchised by the activities of the EU Commission and Parliament?

You refer to "our own projects and plans". But who is the "we" whose plans and projects are being focused upon? Are ordinary people across the EU in the loop on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership? Do ordinary people in Greece get a say on how Greece runs her economy? Do people in Hungary and Austria get consulted before the German Chancellor unilaterally invites several million unvetted young men from terrorist regions to walk into Europe?

Are we British the only ones with reservations about the European Project?

[otokonomidori]

Originally Posted by laberbacke

So I take it you're a republican who wants to abolish both the monarchy and aristocracy (the House of Lords) and replace them with elected officials?

Clearly you don't know as much as you think you do about British institutions - the House of Lords currently has over 700 sitting members - only 92 are from the "aristocracy" , by which I assume you mean hereditary peers.

[G-Type]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

You don't have to answer if you prefer not to; but I am curious to learn how others in Europe feel about being governed by the likes of Juncker and Verhofstadt. Do you feel that the free movement of labour is a freedom for people, or a freedom for commerce? Do you feel that the Schengen Agreement is compatible with national security? Do you feel enfranchised or disenfranchised by the activities of the EU Commission and Parliament?

You refer to "our own projects and plans". But who is the "we" whose plans and projects are being focused upon? Are ordinary people across the EU in the loop on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership? Do ordinary people in Greece get a say on how Greece runs her economy? Do people in Hungary and Austria get consulted before the German Chancellor unilaterally invites several million unvetted young men from terrorist regions to walk into Europe?

Are we British the only ones with reservations about the European Project?

Questions over questions (hence, I haven´t shortened the quote ), but I will try to give an answer. While doing so, I hope to use the most correct English that I am able to.

Without going too much into details of privacy, it might be useful to explain where I come from:

First of all, I must admit -unlike many others here- that I am not very interested in history. Don´t get me wrong, being a German of 56 years, I do of course know of our own history and the grief and sorrow that earlier generations have brought over numerous countries and continents.
However, I do have a clear position that the generation of myself and the generation of my parents (who were kids in WW II) do of course need to regret what has happened but should never be held responsible for it. There is a very clear distinction for me on how I deal with things when it comes to interaction with other countries and cultures. I have learned that being stuck in past does very often hamper to bring things forward.

Perhaps this is why I have articulated my disturbance earlier in this thread when some sort of "war-rhetoric" came up.

*******************

You British are certainly not the only one having reservations about the European Project - I would assume that everyone does have them to a certain extent. However, even though some decisions might not always be the best to one own´s liking, I still think that the positive things do profoundly outperform the negative sides.

When it comes to personal liberty, I could never imagine to have physical borders again. The fact that I can hop from one country to another, using the same currency is wonderful.

You can´t imagine how proud I was to have the first Euro-coins and bills in my hands. For me, this was the ultimate sign of different nations being joined. Not a single second in my life have I cried a single tear not to have the Deutsche Mark anymore.

I have learned during my professional life that transactions between companies have become stressless and much less complicated (elimination of documents, traffic-papers, currency-imponderabilities) and that the turn-over with foreign countries has tremendously increased, with all benefits for each company involved.

A good friend of mine is a Medical Doctor who once or twice per month takes a plane on Friday afternoon and goes for a weekend-shift at a hospital in London. He earns quite good money and helps out due to shortages in your NHS.
There are also people from the UK who have come here to Germany, add to our society with their splendid work and are highly respected members.

Why do I tell this? Because I am utterly convinced that the concept of the EU has profoundly enabled (formerly opposed) nations to come together and to generate wealth.

This is the reason why we Europeans can´t (and won´t) never tolerate a dilution and limitation of free transfers. This comes in a non-separatable package.

**************************

As for the loss of sovereignity, I have argued my points on numerous occasions within this thread. Sorry to repeat myself here, but I just don´t get it.

For all what´s going on in my proper country, it´s my proper government who needs to be held responsible. This goes for good decisions, as well as for bad decisions.

You should never make it too simple just to state that all (negative) side-effects are mainly the result of Brussels Government.

My actual government is lead by Mrs. Merkel, yours by Mrs. May.

Of course, I am always aware that some major decisions are being made on EU-Level. As I have said above, not everything can be applauded upon.

But it would never harm my perception of German sovereignty if the EU-commission decided that we need to switch to British sockets or French standards to make cheese. If those decisions turn out to be the best option among alternatives, then so be it.

To cut it short: Perhaps there is indeed a deeply rooting, historically explainable position within your lovely country to keep individualism and sovereignty. I would not deny that the roots lay in your geographical location or your history of the Commonwealth.
Most probably, this is the main reason why you could not imagine to be under a so-called "hood" or community of values.

******************

Coming back to your question whether ordinary people have been asked in Greece on how to run their economy, the answer is "No". But it was their (in-)proper government who rode their country in the sh*t. If the EU had not launched programs to help and restructure, where would Greece be today?

Coming back to your question whether ordinary people or countries like Austria and Hungary have been asked 2015 when Mrs. Merkel unilaterally has invited millions of refugees, the answer is "No". That´s why she has needed to face tremendous attacks - rightly so. But I can also state that here in Germany, we hold our Chancellor responsible for that particular situation and only a small minority would see EU (as a whole) responsible.

I agree that the protection of outer borders of the EU is a core issue and needs improvement, but I would never go that far to doubt the positive effects of free traveling over that.

Literally speaking, I want my children and grandchildren to have the choice to freely travel and decide freely whether their own future and fortune lies in whole Europe.

Literally speaking, I want that your children and grandchildren will always have the choice to travel freely and make their proper living either in the UK or the EU.

We should always keep in mind that it´s them whom we owe a world of freedom and liberty, because they are not interested what happened in the past but only what will happen in future.

Do the politicians in the UK and all the Brexiteers in particular have a sound answer to this vital question?
.

[palo5]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Are we British the only ones with reservations about the European Project?

Yes, I think you are

Other countries may have problems with individual EU policies, such as immigration, but there is no hatred of the EU itself, which there is in Britain

The reason for the hatred is the daily anti-Europe propaganda you get from your print-media, and your willingness to believe it. Here's a recent example:

"EU DIRTY RATS
The Sun Says we can’t wait to free ourselves of the two-bit mobsters who run the European Union"
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/730981...exit-mobsters/

What they're reacting to is May's attempt to propose something that had already been rejected by the EU, the "checquers paper". In other words she was deliberately wasting time, again. So she had to be told starkly and firmly that it was unworkable

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by scoundrel

Are we British the only ones with reservations about the European Project?

Not at all and as we have pointed out many times turnout at EU elections is pretty pisspoor
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/...ink-of-the-eu/

[palo5]

Originally Posted by Wendigo

Not at all and as we have pointed out many times turnout at EU elections is pretty pisspoor
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/...ink-of-the-eu/

No, the reason voters are less interested is because the EU doesn't negatively interfere with their lives. Nothing to change. It makes their lives easier -- freedom of movement, easy cross-border purchases, no roaming charges etc etc. No end to the advantages. The biggest of all is: no war

[Wendigo]

Originally Posted by palo5

No, the reason voters are less interested is because the EU doesn't negatively interfere with their lives. Nothing to change. It makes their lives easier -- freedom of movement, easy cross-border purchases, no roaming charges etc etc. No end to the advantages. The biggest of all is: no war

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...west-ever.html


To be honest palo old chap I would prefer to hear from members who actually live and have the right to vote in the affected EU countries themselves if they have any actual knowledge of why voter apathy is so rife. Especially from any eligible EU voters who choose not to vote.

We know why it is so in the UK but there may be other possibly regional variations as to why other Europeans are not connecting to the EU itself.

[laberbacke]

G-Type already touched on several arguments I would also have made in response to scoundrel's question.


For me it boils down to two old sayings:

• You don't know what you've got 'til it's gone
• You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater

Is the EU "working like a fine-tuned machine" (to quote the POTUS)? No, certainly not, no vast bureaucracy in either the public or private sector ever does.


Is there a lot of room for improvement? Certainly. And David Cameron's mutually agreed upon reform plans would have actually improved the EU and made its bureaucracy leaner. Unfortunately, Brexit means this reform will not be enacted and the main net contributors (like Germany) will have to pay in even more than they already do.


If a genie granted me one wish to make a structural change in EU government, I would transform the European Commission into a real parliamentary executive branch, answerable to parliamentary majorities and elected from the EU parliament, rather than the current, undemocratic system of each member state appointing its own commissioner. As a side note, this also has the unfortunate collateral effect that every new EU member blows up the size of the government and adjacent bureaucracy even more, as responsibilities have to be further and further dilluted between more and more commissioners and their respective ministries. Prior to the eastern expansion, the EU had 15 commissioners and ministries and that is also about the size of many national governments (Germany currently has 14). With the Balkans joining up, the EU will soon have over 30 commissioners. At some point the commission will have to be reformed out of sheer necessity.



From a matter of "state's rights", there is no need for the EU commission to be appointed by the national governments, because there is already an EU body serving as representative of the 28 national governments - the Council of the European Union, which serves in a similar fashion as the Upper House in many member states' bicameral national parliaments.


Why should such institutional change towards strengthening the parliament be impossible in the future? The EU parliament has already seen several reforms that gave it more authority and democratic legitimation, the Lisbon Treaty doesn't have to be the status quo forever.


Like I posited in the beginning, you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and you often don't know what you've got until it's gone. I believe many people really underestimate how much worse our current life in Europe could be if the EU never existed, and how much worse it may get if the EU collapses due to anachronistic nationalism. Look at the constant warfare in the Middle East as an example.


We who grew up after the war never experienced what every generation of Europeans since the fall of the Roman Empire over a thousand and a half years ago accepted as a mere fact of life: That some region of the continent would always be fighting another. How many generations of young Germans, Britons and French have died on this battlefield or that, fighting each other in one war or another? Now the most heated competition happens on the football field. This is a historic feat that the men who tried to put the continent back together after 1945 could not have imagined in their wildest dreams.



Bickering about the sometimes ridiculous bureaucracy of the EU - like, say, the phase-out of filament lamps - is an incredible luxury that my grandfather and grand uncle didn't have. One died on the Western Front in France, the other was one of the few who made it back from Stalingrad.


It is my sincere belief that we who have so benefitted from the wisdom of our elders in creating this great and sometimes ridiculous leviathan of peace and mutual cooperation, have a generational responsibility to pay it forward, so that our children and their children can also work, travel and marry across this continent, and never again call one another enemy.


I'm deeply saddened that our friends across the north sea no longer want to participate in this great project, but, this being a generational work that will hopefully outlive us all, console myself with the belief that a future generation of Britons may knock on the continent's door once again. The door should always stay open.