The Second World War.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by billybunter

If you research Scounds there is lots of evidence to support a false flag. I don't understand why you reject anything that is not mainstream propaganda. I had family in the navy and it was not a big secret.

With respect, BB, I would prefer it if you did the research and posted the evidence here. It is your position to argue after all. I have refuted it and, again with all due respect, I challenge you to make your case. I do tend to be instinctively sceptical of iconoclastic anti-establishment arguments which aren't evidenced; you have noticed this. This does not make me a lackey of the establishment; I merely follow what seems to me to be logical, evidenced and researched historical analysis, that Japan mounted a surprise attack on Pearl Harbour on 7th December 1941. I have never yet seen a shred of evidence to refute this; but I remain always willing to look at whatever you choose to offer me by way of evidence. I am not disrespecting either you or your views, but I am inviting you to make your case.

On a more general point; I fully anticipate that we will disagree with one another a lot on this thread. I am hoping that BB and I will set a good example of how to handle such differences of opinion as between fellow members, friends and gentlemen.

[Dimwit]

I do not know whether or not the American authorities knew of the Japanese attack on Peal Harbor in advance, but the base should have been on a heightened state of alert. As early as 4am December 7th a periscope of an unknown submarine was spotted just outside the base, and at 6:45 am the USS Ward attacked and sunk another(?) sub. All of this happened before the aerial attack took place.

Testimony of a crew member of the Ward:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OO1CYfT01Y

The Ward's action report of the engagement with, and subsequent sinking of, the submarine:

http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/wwii/pearl/ph97.htm

Evidence to back up the Ward's claim to have sunk a submarine in that engagement:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2223256.stm

[billybunter]

The false flag IS NOT a conspiracy it is a fact. The illuminati funded ALL sides in the war. It was a terrible game played by evil people.

[mr_tibbs]

;...the most troubling aspect abt the second world war is the question of where Germany, which was a small and defeated country following WW1 & suffering a major grt depression got the money/financing to build up a huge state of the art war machine unlike any the world had ever seen practically overnight(?)

[mizlaplan]

Originally Posted by jokerman

Because of people digressing from the appropriate topics on the What Books are you reading & What's happening this week threads. Where we've mentioned the Second World War & With next Wednesday being the 70th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. I thought I'd start a thread about the Second World War.

However there are some rules
1 Nothing racist, anti semitic or xenophobic is to be posted.
2 please keep to the facts.

Hmmmmm...
Here's a personal observation.
Congrats to jokerman for starting this thread but I think point 2 is wrong ("please keep to the facts").
Did everyone notice how successful Greenman's "Thing's noticeable this week" thread is?

One of the reasons for this, in my view, is that it often wandered off on vaguely-related tangents which usually, without help, returned to the main substance of the thread.
These "tangents" are often more entertaining than the main body of the thread.
Trying to curtail such wanderings is a thread-weakener, perhaps killer?
It's your thread jokerman, please allow some "flights of fantasy"
e.g.
what if Bletchley Park never existed?
what if Pearl Harbour had resulted in the destruction all the American Aircraft Carriers?
what if Polish military commanders understood Blitzkrieg and were able to plan for it?
etc, etc.
Miz.

[scoundrel]

Originally Posted by billybunter

The false flag IS NOT a conspiracy it is a fact. The illuminati funded ALL sides in the war. It was a terrible game played by evil people.

If it is OK BB I would like to address the false flag now and save the illuminati for another time. If the false flag is indeed a fact, there is obviously evidence to support this, right? I am asking once again what this evidence is. I really do want to discuss this in a reasonable way, but I can't unless you put forward a case.

[jokerman]

I've noticed that there's a post about Hitler declaring war on the U.S Which guaranteed America joining the war against Germany. What is often forgotten is that before the Pearl harbour attack & Hitler's declartion of war on the United States is that the U.S navy was actually involved in an undeclared war in the Atlantic ocean. During which time U.S ships both military & civilian were attacked by Uboats. Some of which were sunk & others damaged. So if FDR had wanted to declare war on Nazi Germany he already had ample provocation to do so.
Although wether or not he could have used any of this to break the power of the isolationist lobby is another question altogether.

[otokonomidori]

My uncle was an RAF gunner in WW2 - he went to Germany a lot.

After the war was over he had a nervous breakdown and one day he ran about his mother's house emptying out all the cupboards and wardrobes - I've no idea what he was looking for.

He was locked up in a home for a couple of weeks where he played with a piece of string and seemed to recover himself.

But he can't have been completely right in the head because he became a Catholic and went to church every single day for the rest of his life.

He was a really nice man though - gave my brother and I ten bob every time he visited.
The only time I ever saw him angry was when my father took me to see a war film.

He never married - when I went to his funeral in the early 80s I thought to myself that men like him were just as much victims of the war as were the Glorious Dead whose names are on the war memorial .

[squigg58]

Originally Posted by mr_tibbs

;...the most troubling aspect abt the second world war is the question of where Germany, which was a small and defeated country following WW1 & suffering a major grt depression got the money/financing to build up a huge state of the art war machine unlike any the world had ever seen practically overnight(?)

My understanding is that it's hideously complicated, but I'm not sure I'd agree it happened "practically overnight". Like a lot of countries, Germany suffered from The Great Depression, but in '33 Hitler attempted to make Germany more self-sufficient. Later, trade deals were done with countries in Germany's sphere of influence with strategic raw materials flowing into Germany, and finished goods going out. The focus was on building up heavy industry, particularly the armaments industry. Although unemployment was all but eliminated (by displacing those considered to be "undesirable) wages were controlled, the Trade Unions were replaced and there was no right to strike or even quit a job. The main problem was that Germany couldn't borrow extra funds on the money market as the interest rates would have been too high, so the real "trick" was the creation of the MEFO bills which allowed Germany to run at a greater deficit.

Basically, they spent six years preparing for war and didn't "waste" money on other stuff.

[rotobott]

My gran lived next door to a woman whose son had been in a japanese POW camp, he used to wake up screaming, never came out during the day.

We thought he was wierd.

We were just kids, what did we know.