The NFL and NBA thread

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

You sir, are correct. They are rap stars...

Lol! Doesn't Ron Artest have a hip hop CD coming out soon? Being an NBA Champion isn't enough?

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Lol! Doesn't Ron Artest have a hip hop CD coming out soon? Being an NBA Champion isn't enough?

Apparently not. Didn't he try to blow off practice because he was tired from promoting a CD? He is a producer, no?

This is one of the problems I have with how people view athletes today:

As an example - my hockey team, the Montreal Canadiens.

I want Montreal to sign GREAT players, as CHEAPLY as possible...so they can get more GREAT PLAYERS, so they can WIN. Once a player leaves Montreal, I no longer want them to win .

What is this crap about making sure that players 'Get theirs'. Fuck 'em! I want my team to win...

...people today follow players. Not teams. Why should anyone care how much a player makes (unless that player is supporting them)?

If a player blows out a knee (as previously suggested) he'll do it if he's making $1 million or $10 million. If he's on my team, I want to pay him $1 million. On your team...$10 million!

People aren't faithful to teams...plain and simple. That's sad...

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

Well - I guess we can agree to disagree.

Athletes today are overpaid babies - maybe if they spent less on bling and the lifestyle, they wouldn't go bankrupt so fast. Latrell Spreewell turned down $21 million for 3 years because "He needed to feed his family". Scotty Pippen is going broke, Antoine Walker IS broke...

...it's all about STYLE OVER SUBSTANCE.

Sorry - the only people who can say 'it's a business' are the owners who are taking the risks. LeBron has made how many millions so far (along with endorsements) $100-200-300...

...WASTING money is no excuse to say "it's a business". Neither is it a reason for Jesse Jackson to say it is slavery.

PLEASE...pay me millions to play a game...ENSLAVE ME!!!

Agents (i.e. Lawyers) along with selfish players who have no concern past their own bellybuttons, are the reason things are the way they are.

S'Okay - it can't go on forever...the goose will be killed. It's only a matter of time. (Bird, Magic, Jordan and the others who faithfully built this league must be crying over how the knucklehead children are destroying the league)


I guess, Keefriff, at the end of the day, I come from a different time:

Players should play the sport for the love of the game. Obviously you feel that they should get as much money as possible. That is what is wrong with sports, today. Player try to push it on ownership, saying "look how much money they make"

It should not be about the money. You should play the game because you love it. Basketball players play for the cash. Hockey players, play because they love the game...

LeBron took approx. 30 million LESS to play in Miami. So isn't he trying to win at the expense of making the most money?

And are we talking about the same hockey league that lost a complete season due to an owner lock out that was a result of NHLPA rejecting a salary cap figure proposed by ownership? Sure doesn't sound to me like they are playing solely for the love of the game.

[grossnex]

Originally Posted by keefriff

LeBron took approx. 30 million LESS to play in Miami. So isn't he trying to win at the expense of making the most money?

And are we talking about the same hockey league that lost a complete season due to an owner lock out that was a result of NHLPA rejecting a salary cap figure proposed by ownership? Sure doesn't sound to me like they are playing solely for the love of the game.

Well said keefriff my brother. If LeBron wanted to just make the most money he could've signed with New York or the LA Clippers & cashed in on those media markets through endorsements. In my own cynical way however, I see him trying to build the LEGEND of LeBron now vs what he's done so far - build himself as the KING (whatever that means). In the end it's all about himself though. I have a hard time believing that he even knows the history of the game as much as the hardcore fan does. I feel like most of the professional athletes across all American sports are too busy building their image & not focusing on the task at hand - winning. It's like they're using the NBA to catapult themselves to greater goals. As a fan it makes me feel kind of dirty to root on a self absorbed over marketed politician trying to sell me his personalized junk.

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by grossnex

Well said keefriff my brother. If LeBron wanted to just make the most money he could've signed with New York or the LA Clippers & cashed in on those media markets through endorsements. In my own cynical way however, I see him trying to build the LEGEND of LeBron now vs what he's done so far - build himself as the KING (whatever that means). In the end it's all about himself though. I have a hard time believing that he even knows the history of the game as much as the hardcore fan does. I feel like most of the professional athletes across all American sports are too busy building their image & not focusing on the task at hand - winning. It's like they're using the NBA to catapult themselves to greater goals. As a fan it makes me feel kind of dirty to root on a self absorbed over marketed politician trying to sell me his personalized junk.

Thanks for your response. It seems we are the few who are interested in this topic. I agree with you that it seems to be more about "image" and personal gain than about winning with some players. LeBron may be one of those types but time will tell. I agree 100% that his rep has taken a tremendous blow and with good reason. He came off as arrogant and completely narcissistic. But if the issue is about money and/or winning, he should be praised by fans, outside of Cleveland, for taking less money to play with a team he thinks has a better chance of winning. Udonis Haslem and Derek Fisher each took less money to stay w/ current clubs because they thought they could win. It does happen. LeBron made the Cavs a TON of money. Don't ever forget that. He owes them nothing.

I also agree that it is hard at times to cheer for some athletes. Some of them are self absorbed, have a sense of entitlement, etc. We all know the type. They are some not all pro athletes. Is LeBron one of them? Up until Thursday most people would have said no. His image and marketability were praised less then two weeks ago. He is not solely responsible for that image. The NBA, the Cavs, his agency, the players union, and the media all have had a part in building his image. They made money off of it. That's why they do it. It may be hard to swallow at times, but that is the reality.

The final thing that I'm going to say is that the personal transgressions of some athletes can not be used to cast a net across all athletes. Crazy spending, bankruptcy, drug use, violent behavior etc. is not a by product of pro sports it is a by product of society and each player is an individual who make their own choices. Yes, you read of the examples like the ones posted earlier but there are also lots of guys who have saved their money and have never comitted a crime. I see them in my town nearly every day.

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by qwerty007

Apparently not. Didn't he try to blow off practice because he was tired from promoting a CD? He is a producer, no?

This is one of the problems I have with how people view athletes today:

As an example - my hockey team, the Montreal Canadiens.

I want Montreal to sign GREAT players, as CHEAPLY as possible...so they can get more GREAT PLAYERS, so they can WIN. Once a player leaves Montreal, I no longer want them to win .

What is this crap about making sure that players 'Get theirs'. Fuck 'em! I want my team to win...

...people today follow players. Not teams. Why should anyone care how much a player makes (unless that player is supporting them)?

If a player blows out a knee (as previously suggested) he'll do it if he's making $1 million or $10 million. If he's on my team, I want to pay him $1 million. On your team...$10 million!

People aren't faithful to teams...plain and simple. That's sad...

I can't imagine that many players will want to come and play for the Habs if that were ownerships attitude towards salaries and players. 'Eff them? I bet the players will be beating down the door to sign.

So let me get this right. The guys who own the team take all the risks. The players deserve whatever the owner feels he should give them. Who cares about the athlete who has a debilitating injury at work when he's 24 because he makes good money. Screw all players who leave my team no matter what they did while they played for my team. And people only follow players instead of teams...except you who is a die hard Habs fan. Got it

[grossnex]

I can understand where Qwerty is coming from with loyalty issues with the players although I also understand where you're coming from keefriff. I take a wait & see attitude whenever a player across any sport is a free agent. That's where the loyalty vs paycheck theme is really tested as it was here with LeBron.

To use baseball as an example, I first have to say that I'm a Yankees fan. Derek Jeter is a free agent after this season & although I couldn't envision him playing for another team, all I can say is "You never know".

I'm sure Packers fans in the NFL couldn't see Brett Favre playing anywhere else (even though he forced a trade). I'm sure back in the day Qwerty couldn't see Gretzky or Messier playing anywhere else. Just curious how it made you feel Qwerty when Messier held the Stanley Cup up for the Rangers?

It seems like the only good sports rivalries anymore are in College Football. The players in those rivalries don't like each other. Professional rivalries seem to be more fan based. For example, as a Yankees fan I hate the Red Sox. I doubt Yankees players feel the same way I do. I just don't see the team pride & loyalty from the players that I saw as a kid in the '80's anymore.

[keefriff]

Originally Posted by grossnex

I can understand where Qwerty is coming from with loyalty issues with the players although I also understand where you're coming from keefriff. I take a wait & see attitude whenever a player across any sport is a free agent. That's where the loyalty vs paycheck theme is really tested as it was here with LeBron.

To use baseball as an example, I first have to say that I'm a Yankees fan. Derek Jeter is a free agent after this season & although I couldn't envision him playing for another team, all I can say is "You never know".

I'm sure Packers fans in the NFL couldn't see Brett Favre playing anywhere else (even though he forced a trade). I'm sure back in the day Qwerty couldn't see Gretzky or Messier playing anywhere else. Just curious how it made you feel Qwerty when Messier held the Stanley Cup up for the Rangers?

It seems like the only good sports rivalries anymore are in College Football. The players in those rivalries don't like each other. Professional rivalries seem to be more fan based. For example, as a Yankees fan I hate the Red Sox. I doubt Yankees players feel the same way I do. I just don't see the team pride & loyalty from the players that I saw as a kid in the '80's anymore.

I hear you on the loyalty of players but I think it goes both ways. Owners don't have loyalty to many players. When players reach the point of diminishing returns, they get released or traded. End of story. I know we all pine for the old days but those days are gone, gone, gone. No sense in wishing because they ain't coming back. I hear you 100% on the feeling that the players don't "care" as much as fans do. But that is a fan talking. How do we know what the players feel? This is their job and I think most do it with a real passion. If you don't play these sports with a passion to win, I don't think you would last long at the proffessional level. That desire and passion is part of what makes them pro athletes. I don't think they feel the same passion as fans do because they look at it through different eyes. But if you watch sports you see players crying at the end of championship games and you see guys rejoicing ecstatically. I think most, if not all, care alot about winning. Maybe just not the same way as a fan cares.

Not to be a know it all, but Messier, Gretzky played for Edmonton and not Montreal. Let's not get our Canadian brothers longjohns in a bundle. Like they are reading this thread anyways. Where's the hockey thread eh?

Now don't get me started on college sports. I love college sports, especially the passion of the participants, but it one of the most hypocritical operations that has ever existed. The NCAA is a complete joke but that is for another thread.

[qwerty007]

Originally Posted by keefriff

I can't imagine that many players will want to come and play for the Habs if that were ownerships attitude towards salaries and players. 'Eff them? I bet the players will be beating down the door to sign.

So let me get this right. The guys who own the team take all the risks. The players deserve whatever the owner feels he should give them. Who cares about the athlete who has a debilitating injury at work when he's 24 because he makes good money. Screw all players who leave my team no matter what they did while they played for my team. And people only follow players instead of teams...except you who is a die hard Habs fan. Got it

Nope - let me explain it this way;

Ever hear of a player called Guy Lafleur? He was a Montreal GOD. Did everything in Mtl, and was everything. There were money issues and he left, went to the Rangers and then the Nordiques.

Did Montrealers stop cheering for the Habs and buy jerseys with Lafleurs name on it, with NY or Que? Nope. He was gone. He was no longer a Hab. The TEAM was bigger than the player.

My point about the money is this; Why do you care, what Lebron makes?

"I don't begrudge ANY proffesional athlete for trying to get the most that he can."

Even to the detriment of your team? So you support the player, over the team, I guess? So Jamarcus Russell getting $39 million from the Raiders was cool, right?

BTW: Not that it matters much, but there is a stat bandied about that 75% of NFL players face financial hardship with 5 years of retirement. That makes it the rule and not the exception (like in Minneapolis) FAR MORE GUYS GOING BANKRUPT, then having their careers ended by injury...

No - I am very much a union guy. Owners would pay players as little as they could, without a doubt.


But I am also an HONOUR guy...that is what I am talking about.

The problem is that honour AND chasing the dollar seldom meet. What LeBron did was not honourable. See your boy from the Timberwolves - KG? Played hard, played alone (in futility) so they did him a favour and traded him to Boston to play for some titles. Did KG hold a press conference? Make a splash? Dance with Ray Allen and Pierce on a stage upon his arrival? KG gave the best years of his life to the Timberwolves.

Lebron...not so much...

Ever hear of Ray Bourque? Boston to the Avs?

(On the NHL cap thing)

Apparently, most of the players were ready to accept a cap, but the lawyers for the players wouldn't let it happen. Once the dust settled, players LOST as much as 25% of their salaries AND got a hard cap. Now, the NHLPA has torn itself apart...

It's just my feeling that players in the NBA play more for the paycheck, than for the love of the game.

[grossnex]

LMAO! Did I mention I was a casual hockey fan?!

That's why I like you my brother. You know when to call a brother out on his BS. On passion though, I never said they don't care at all. But, I remember Wade Boggs hysterically crying in the dugout on his way to losing the World Series in '86, but I just can't remember seeing it in the last 10-20 years. I base my thoughts on the fan vs player passion on what I see, read & hear in the various media outlets. When these players are interviewed they're giving responses that indicate exactly what you described. It's just their job. That's fine, but as a fan of my team, I want guys I know are giving it everything that they have to win.